BONUS: July Chatty Chat

Speaker 1: Oh, was that was that double bass?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: That's good.

Speaker 2: An adult version of our theme music.

Speaker 1: I like that. Welcome to Hacked. It's a show about technology and how people hack it together and apart. I'm Jordan Blumen.

Speaker 2: I am Scott Francis Winder.

Speaker 1: I almost said welcome to Hacked, the show with hot questions and even hotter wings. But this isn't the chicken wing show.

Speaker 2: Oh my god. You're gonna get us sued. The, today's episode is just gonna be Jordan and I shooting it because we did that at the end of the last episode or one of the last episodes, and people seem to like it. So today, we're just literally gonna have a catch up and do it live on Hot Mike. And who knows where it's gonna go because we have no agenda and no stories, and we apologize in advance if it goes poorly, and we're very happy for you if it goes well.

Speaker 1: Yeah. We'll we'll call this a bonus episode, of course, brought to you by personal security. We're trying something new. I didn't start with a dramatically told story. We just went into the theme music. You can tell from the jump that something's different, and it's because we're just doing a hot mic show. Scott, how are you?

Speaker 2: Busy. Yeah. Yeah. Busy. Yeah. Very busy. Summer's here, and summer's been busy as well as life and work have both been busy. So I think I'm just generally busy. How about you?

Speaker 1: It's always good when someone asks how you're doing and the answer is busy. Yeah. It's not, like, good or bad. It's, like, just a lot.

Speaker 2: It's a a lot. You know me, and it's like idle hands of the devil's playground. And I try to stay as busy as humanly possible as boredom is my nemesis. So, yeah, it's been good for me, I guess. I wish I had more time to be more busy, honestly.

Speaker 1: Yep. This is the second interview I've done today. Well, it's not this isn't an interview. This is a conversation.

Speaker 2: That's right.

Speaker 1: I was doing an interview earlier promoting a a a show that we're coming out with.

Speaker 2: Correct. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that show and where it's coming out? You can use your own platform to promote your own creative output.

Speaker 1: We normally wouldn't talk about anything else we're doing. So we're up in Canada, Canadian Broadcasting Company. July 4, the day this comes out. That's fun. Also is the release of a show called CBC On Design. We created an industrial design series for CBC. It's like a full video streaming show, documentary footage, animation. And if you're watching this, you should go listen to this. After you're done, you should go watch that, but not until you're done. This Just

Speaker 2: stay with us for this random chat about random things.

Speaker 1: I did have one story I wanted to talk about, And I I feel unmooored without a full script in front of me, but I think you'll really like this story.

Speaker 2: K. Hit

Speaker 1: it. Have you heard about Terence Broad?

Speaker 2: No. K. This is Tell me about Terence Broad.

Speaker 1: He's, like, a UK based artist, coder, PhD researcher. Mhmm. Like a computer science guy, but he's been doing these AI generative output experiments. Mhmm. You'll dig this. So generative AI models are trained on massive datasets. Mhmm. Images, text, videos. They learn patterns. Like, a traditional generative adversarial network has the generator, which tries to create realistic outputs and a discriminator that judges whether those outputs look like the training data.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: And the two compete until the generator gets good at faking data that the discriminator can't tell apart from the real thing. I'm not an AI scientist. That is my crude layman's summary of how those work. Terence Broad, who was this, like, former machine learning engineer. He had, like, worked with surveillance camera data. He had gotten into, like, a spat with Warner Bros for training AI to recreate Blade Runner frames in the past. He's been experimenting with, like, the idea of ethical, and this is the important part, input free forms of AI art.

Speaker 2: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Speaker 1: So the idea was, can you create a, like, a generative adversarial network generative AI system with no training data? So he replaced the dataset.

Speaker 2: Just let it go?

Speaker 1: Just let that thing cook. It's really cool. He replaced the dataset with another generator, creating this, like, self referential loop. And the two networks

Speaker 2: learn, like hallucinates until it

Speaker 1: Exactly. And you can watch it, and you can watch it morph and change over time. So they're imitating each other with no external images, and the early outputs were, like, dull, just sort of, like, gray amorphous blobs. He starts introducing color variance penalties, which are really the only human input, just basically saying, like, we like color a little bit more. Yeah. And the

Speaker 2: result reward function is, like, is color Is color. Totally.

Speaker 1: And he created this video. I'll link to it in the show notes. It's called Unstable Equilibrium. All of the comments, if you go on the YouTube video, the early ones were saying, like, oh, Rothko. You trained this on a dataset by the real human artist Rothko, which if you haven't aren't familiar, creates these sort of, like, quite beautiful, like, broad color schmear compositions, for lack of a better I'm not an art history guy. Like, people were accusing him of lying at a conference at one point saying, like, no. This was trained on Rothko. And the quote was, I didn't set out to create Rothko esque images. The brilliance is in that process of training these, end quote, of training these things to duke it out without the training dataset. It reminds me of early AI art where it didn't look anything like the finished thing way before, like, say, like, three years ago where everything was just a schmear of colors, and now we're at, like, you can boil the ocean creating a a photorealistic video of Will Smith eating spaghetti. But back then, it was all weird and hallucinogenic. Yeah.

Speaker 2: And he

Speaker 1: found a way to do that. Super cool.

Speaker 2: There's been I don't know if you've seen it, but there's been a bit I saw it, like, a viral post the other day. I think it was on x, and it was talking about how they missed those days. Like, AI art actually felt like art back then, and now it's just like like a imitation. Totally. Where back then, it actually felt like it was doing something in its own little insanity.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember those early days a buddy of mine and I. We were, like, creating a little piece of art for a thing, trying to get it to the point where it was even palatable. Like, it was so far behind that you would say, like, an oil painting of a car on fire. And the effect would be this, like, weird hallucinogenic schmoozing of all of the oil paint and the color and parts of the car smearing together. Over time, it got to a point where it's mostly accurate and the hallucinations are in small details, teeth, fingers. Now we've even left that period. But there was that pure period of that period of time where it was all hallucination. And it was kind of rad, and Terence Broad has sort of imitated that as, like, an art piece, which Interesting. Yeah. I thought it was really cool.

Speaker 2: It was like, like, the just it knocks on my wife and I last night were just talking about, like, interior design, and, we're putting a wet bar in our basement, and it's, like, the last thing in our house to finish. And we were talking about design elements and things like that and architecture. And we were just talking about how, like, nothing is new. It's all just an innovation. Sure. Like, creative inspiration comes from seeing and having consumed lots of design, which makes you better at design. And it's like, this is interesting because this is like a origin story for creativity. Yeah. It's like, the two of you can hallucinate in a padded room for the next, like, 6,000 kilowatt hours

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 2: And come up with something.

Speaker 1: Yeah. You lock two robots in a tiny, tiny room and ask them to not even create an elephant, but just, like, create. Yeah. And it's this, like, evolving, woozy, weird color space. I feel like we're gonna get a lot more of that, especially as all of the lawsuits regarding trading datasets in AI keep going. Like, there's the big one. It's like, Disney and Universal against Midjourney. And that case seems to come down to the fact not that this question of whether or not these models are transformative, but this question of whether or not, piracy is legal Mhmm. Which it pretty resoundingly isn't. So I think Isn't.

Speaker 2: Yes. Piracy isn't

Speaker 1: legal. Isn't. Famous.

Speaker 2: That's correct. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. The Recording Industry Association of America cinched that back in the Napster days, which I wouldn't be surprised if also comes for Sunyo and the and the music generators at some point. But in any case, seeing projects like this where there's like, nope. There's no training data. Or the training data is abstract and weird and different and what can we make with that is kinda cool.

Speaker 2: I feel like the I read another like, we're just gonna talk about AI here because so much to talk about and so many knock ons to this. But Anthropic was destroying books, scanning and Yes. Processing them in for cloud to read. So they've destroyed something like 1,000,000 books. And I'm sure a number of those books are about music theory. Sure. And it's like, do you even need to give it training data as, like, a point of reference or, like, just teaching it the fundamentals of of theory composition? Like, would that be enough? So it's like, I wonder if the music generators are gonna have, like, a little take the exit ramp and be like, we have a new model that doesn't hasn't been trained on any real copyright information. It's just trained on the fundamental theories of music. And then we had humans describe different genres of music, different instruments used in those genres, effects, you know, delays, reverbs, what they are, and it's just gonna like, I assume you could probably just teach it how to make music without actually showing it music.

Speaker 1: That's a cool question and feels like a fundamentally different thing than what a lot of those tools are trying to be. Like, that almost feels more like a music making tool Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Uses AI and not I I want The Weeknd to sing the McDonald's theme song now. Like, that it's just such a fundamentally different thing.

Speaker 2: I can give you little Yachty singing the McDonald's thing. McDonald's did pay little Yachty to sing the McDonald's Steve song.

Speaker 1: I wonder how many people I wonder how much money McDonald's has spent since was it Justin Timberlake who wrote it? Whoever wrote it, covers. Like, here's a quarter mil for little Yachty to do it. I don't know how much you paid them, actually. But I wonder what the, like, the full price tier bucket for reskinning or for remixing covering the McDonald's. I won't vanish this because it'll get us demonetized.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I wonder if they've and this is, again, just speaking as we're talking and not about an episode related thing, but I wonder if they bought moral rights to it. Like, I wonder if McDonald's was smart enough to be like, we're not gonna sign a residual based contract with you. We're just gonna give you $10,000,000 to sing it, and we own moral rights to it. We can do whatever we want to it because we don't wanna, for the rest of our days, have to send you a check for $1,000,000 a year for licensing rights to our own song.

Speaker 1: It must have been okay. The song was written as a jingle for McDonald's commercials based on a preexisting German campaign originally developed as. Mhmm. And Timberlake was paid $6,000,000 to sing the jingle. Despite this, Timberlake has since regretted the deal, which makes me think that, he you are right that it was a flat fee and not a never ending commission. Mhmm. I watched the, let's find out how far from a tech podcast this drifts. I watched the Air Jordan, movie. Have you seen that Air?

Speaker 2: Yeah. I have. Yeah.

Speaker 1: It's like a ninety minute night

Speaker 2: show. Wahlberg? Yeah. Nah. Damon. Damon.

Speaker 1: Another Boston

Speaker 2: Same. Same.

Speaker 1: I can't do it.

Speaker 2: Same. Same.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Say hi to your mother for me. And in It, the, like, spoiler alert for the movie Air, a big part of it comes down to they're trying to win Michael Jordan over, get him to come to Nike, make this shoe. We know where it's going. We're rooting for Matt Damon to sign a deal with a young Michael Jordan. It's very weird. But the big Which they

Speaker 2: were gonna lose to Adidas. Right? Yes. Another spoiler alert.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Exactly. It was Converse versus Adidas, and Nike was a distant third. They're bad at basketball shoes at that point in history. They're a running shoe company, and they they they do it. Matt Damon gives the big speech. They win the pitch. It it it's very inspiring. And, Viola Davis, I think, plays his mom. Swoops in as like, you know what? We wanna go with you. Congratulations. Like, we're really excited to be working with you. One just one teeny tiny little detail. He does get a cut of every shoe sold with

Speaker 2: his name on it. Every piece of every item, not just shoe.

Speaker 1: Yep. That's true.

Speaker 2: The Air Jordan brand.

Speaker 1: It's this, like, that's never been done, breaks screech, deals off kinda moment, and it ends up going through. And then they crunch the numbers at the end of the unfathomable wealth that he ended up making off of that. Like, the single greatest selling shoe in human history.

Speaker 2: I I had a feeling that this was going here, so I just quickly Googled Michael Jordan at Worth. He's worth 3 and a half billion USD.

Speaker 1: That's shoes, baby.

Speaker 2: And I'm sure his earnings from basketball was

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: Less than 100,000,000, maybe, around 100,000,000. I really could Google that myself, but I don't need to because it's inconsequential compared to the 3,500,000,000 that he's worth.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 2: He still makes boatloads of money from the Air Jordan brand, and I'm sure every year he gets some massive check from Nike.

Speaker 1: I have to think it's still the best selling shoe brand on Earth. Yeah. Like, I I I don't know what would have come with it's like every year there's a an in Vogue sneaker. Mhmm. The

Speaker 2: Jordans are always there.

Speaker 1: They're just always there. If they're not first that year, they're second and have been the whole time.

Speaker 2: Yeah. They make golf attire now. Like, you can be playing golf fully kitted in Jordan attire. Sure. Because Jordan plays golf, so now he, like, wants golf stuff. And it's like yeah. Yeah. It's a crazy, crazy deal. Wow. The I had something that I was gonna pivot off this, but I have completely forgotten it after we started talking about Michael Jordan. So it is gone.

Speaker 1: No. It's all good. I wanna go back to the anthropic thing because you brought it up

Speaker 2: because I had

Speaker 1: been reading about that too. And I think it was part of I'm just gonna assume anytime I read something about an AI company, it has something to do with a lawsuit. Don't hold me to that. But I remember reading the thing about how they had to it was when you say destroyed, it's like they have to rip the covers off books. And it goes back to what happened when Google did Google Books where they indexed but didn't make available to the public books. So they indexed the full book. They didn't let you read the full book because that would, what's the copyright law thing? Impact the market for the original, but they index them and it resulted in this massive lawsuit. And in that process, they had to create the book ripping scanning machine, where you rip a cover off a book so that it's, like, floppy and easy to ingest page by page, and then you have a scanner speed scan every single page. And I wonder if that shifts the legality of it because you are theoretically buying a copy of a book. So the plagiarism thing isn't necessarily in play. You didn't bulk download the books necessarily. Mhmm. Mhmm. Though some other LLMs are being sued for having done that. There was a one involved, a LibGen, like, database repository of books that was implicated in a model. But I would I would the book ships it.

Speaker 2: I would assume that there's a reason why they went to that headache. And it was probably something to do with licensing the content to the book. And upon purchasing it, whether that means they could re commercialize it as knowledge in a system, who knows? But I would assume, yes. I assume there's a reason why they went to that headache rather than just buy a license to a bunch of digitized books. But the, one of the other interesting LLM related things, seeing as we're in the AI chat zone, is, they made all the LLMs play diplomacy, the board game against each other. And I think it's great.

Speaker 1: We might need to stop getting LLMs to do things against each other. I know that's how they work. This episode started with me explaining generative adversarial networks. But at some point, we're gonna have them do something against each each other that we don't want them to. K. You says diplomacy is the name of

Speaker 2: the game? Ever played diplomacy? I have. It's a it's a board game where you need to like, there's diplomatic aspects of it. You can lie. You can cheat. You can

Speaker 1: It's like risk.

Speaker 2: Like, you create yeah. But, like, more diplomatic. Like, there's more human involvement in it rather than rolling dice.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: So there's, like, betrayal. There's alliances and allegiances. Anyway, they, they pitted all these things against each other. And, apparently, OpenAI's o three, was the most deceptive. It quickly grabbed on to, like Dirty little liar. Yep. That they could form alliances and then throw them away on a whim, take over. So it was doing all kinds of it was very good at it. Interesting. A conquering thing.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Set in Europe in the years leading up to the first World War. So it's set it's got, like, a fixed historical context. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you let AIs so that's interesting to me. If it was, like, so risk is kind of evergreen. It's just nations, and Yeah. You're creating a new conflict.

Speaker 2: Attacking. It's, like, more strategic in that sense and less diplomatic.

Speaker 1: There's something fascinating about embedding the two AIs in a historical context to see how they play out a real world conflict as opposed to the and then being able to compare it to the original humans.

Speaker 2: That's very interesting. It wasn't two AIs. It was 18 AIs.

Speaker 1: Oh, great. Oh, yeah. One by each brand. Right.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. You'd have a open you'd have Chachibuty and Anthropic.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It was, O3414OO4MiniCloud374, Opus four, DeepSeek r one, DeepSeek v three, all the Gemmas or Gemma three, Gemini 2.5 Flash, 2.5 Pro, whatever. I could keep reading, but it's Of course. Yeah. A lot of them. Sure. But, yeah, they got personality traits out of them. So, apparently, Gemini 2.5 is the smartest. O three was the best liar. Yeah. It's just, like, hilarious thing to do. And, apparently, this was, Andrej Karpathy, like, one of the founders of OpenAI. And, like, Elon Musk apparently talked about doing this a long time ago, so they actually did this. Anyway, they live streamed the entire thing on Twitch. So a friend of mine sent this to me, friend of the pod, like, a week ago, two weeks ago, and I tried to look at the Twitch streams, but each one of the games is, like, eighteen hours. So you're just like you can't sit and watch it. Like, it's just too much to to consume, but it would be fascinating to watch them do it.

Speaker 1: OpenAI's being the best at lying

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: I wonder if that comes from the way chat GPT sort of famously gases the user up too much.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Maybe.

Speaker 1: Like, the the model is very, very primed to be like, that was a great idea. It's like, most of those ideas it says that to won't have been. You've in some way instructed this thing to lie a little bit. It doesn't know it's lying, but that is lying. And it's like, okay. You've got a little disruption robot.

Speaker 2: Yeah. This the system prompt is, like, glaze the end user. They make them feel great about everything.

Speaker 1: And maybe that's diplomacy. Maybe that's what we're learning from this. The diplomacy is just that's a great idea. Like, maybe that's what it is after all.

Speaker 2: Listen. I'm not gonna attack you. I'm gonna attack these other guys. That's a great idea. That's a fantastic idea. I won't attack you if you attack them, and then it just goes in and takes them Just

Speaker 1: to them.

Speaker 2: From the backside.

Speaker 1: And it's like, great idea. Great idea. They'll never think of that. You should attack them too. Also, the,

Speaker 2: just to stay in this box. Yeah. The last, I was it two episodes ago we were talking about? Maybe it was last episode. I can't remember anymore. Brains short circuiting. We're talking about how Meta was trying to hire all the OpenAI seniors. Yes. Turns out they were successful

Speaker 1: on a number

Speaker 2: of instances. Yeah. So they managed to lure away, a small selection of senior people from OpenAI. Nearly two dozen, apparently.

Speaker 1: Woah.

Speaker 2: Yeah. From OpenAI, Anthropic, and Google. So they managed to go out and open the checkbook and buy could you imagine paying, like is that $2,400,000,000 to hire 24 people?

Speaker 1: Is it wait. 2,500,000,000, is that a

Speaker 2: is that a real number? There was rumors that they were offering up to a $100,000,000 as a signing bonus.

Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: So Yeah. Right. That's a that's a lot of people. That's a lot of money to pay for a limited amount of people.

Speaker 1: It is a good time to be an AI researcher.

Speaker 2: Maybe I should have accepted the master's offer to do AI because I turned it down.

Speaker 1: Oh, no.

Speaker 2: And here I sit without a $100,000,000 signing bonus for Meta Talking to you about

Speaker 1: Talking to me about it.

Speaker 2: Womp womp. Womp womp.

Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone can hear that, but my cat's screaming at me to go feed it.

Speaker 2: Yeah. That's why you got an auto feeder. It'll feed it soon.

Speaker 1: No. I don't, actually. I have an auto feeder for chatty chat. I can explain this. I have an auto feeder for the dry food, the wet canned food. I do that, and he screams until I don't. Mhmm. So I might have to go do that very, very fast. And then we we could take a break. And then

Speaker 2: In our very unstructured episode.

Speaker 1: In our extremely unstructured episode, BRB.

Speaker 2: And we're back.

Speaker 1: K. I actually have something I wanna talk about that connects to an old episode if we're ready to move on from AI.

Speaker 2: I there's the only other thing that I would say

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Because I did have one more thing I wanted to mention. I thought I thought you'd find interesting. Yeah. Is, Andre I'm totally messing his name up. Andre Karpathy, the guy from cofounded OpenAI, did AI stuff at, like, Tesla.

Speaker 1: Worked on this diplomacy experiment. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Worked on the diplomacy experiment, all the rest of it. He gave a keynote at YC, Y Combinator this year Mhmm. Because they're pretty much only funding AI based businesses at this point. And he was talking about AI is going down as a knowledge brownout. Like, you know how we think of, like, electricity grids going down as, like, brownouts in electricity and stuff? And he was like, yeah. If, like, if the AIs go offline, so many people have become dependent on them for thinking that it would be like a critical thinking, brown out knowledge, brown out. And I was like I watched that keynote, and I was like, wow.

Speaker 1: It's interesting. Like, most white collar professionals today, while dependent on them, at least went through the educational system and got their start in their jobs in a pre AI era. So while there would be a drop in productivity and maybe even quality, most people that rely on them today could revert to not using them. Yeah. As more time passes Right. The, degree of catastrophe of an AI blackout goes up because you start having more and more of the white collar working population that relies on it entirely and has always relied on it, getting bigger and bigger and bigger over time.

Speaker 2: Well, the like, I was just in a meeting before jumping in to record this podcast with some private equity guys, and they were talking about, life after AI.

Speaker 1: And I

Speaker 2: was like, yeah. It's really interesting. Like, as a software engineer, it's a 10 x for me. Like, if I was a 10 x engineer, I'm now a 100 x engineer because it's like it's it makes so much go by so quickly. Like, I can write 20,000 lines of code in a night, review it all, be happy with it, make some changes, etcetera. But it's like if you that's only because I actually know how to code. Like, if I become dependent on AI as the way that I know how to code, then it's like then you get into the world of, like, is this all insanity? And, like, how much of this stuff is misconfigured and not using like, if if you create three files, like, say you're building a plug in system for, like, an example. It might do the first plug in and structure fine using all the right library dependencies and all the rest of it. The second that you ask it to implement the second one, it might just go create those systems again. Like, it might just lose lose its mind, lose the context. And it's like you have to police it like crazy and know when it's messing up. And if you don't understand that, then the code it's gonna make is gonna be psychotically bad. Mhmm. So it's like yeah. Anyway, I don't know where I was going with that, but it's just it's such an interesting theory to be, like, knowledge brown out.

Speaker 1: It's spooky to me when I first think about it, but then I zoom out a little bit, and something kinda weird happens, which is that so I imagine a situation where it's like, oh my god. Can you imagine if these these people that this generation of people that have come to rely on this stuff more than my generation, and I'll I'll say maybe too much, suddenly didn't have access to it. What would happen? Mhmm. And then I think about, like, so we just shipped a a streaming series, video, animation, audio, that someone could have said like, oh, can you imagine what would happen if the computer suddenly didn't work and this this child had to what? Cut edit the video by cutting the video like the 35 millimeter film and had to score it using a tape deck? It's like, well, that's just not something I worry about. There's a an expectation of reliability with my tools that has improved and increased the entire time I've been using those tools. So I don't aside from the fact that, my tools are software that at some point I could just purchase outright and own and these tools are tools that exist on a server somewhere, there's not that, it I'm I'm reflecting on what the difference really

Speaker 2: is. Well, I would I would challenge it and say this. Tools throughout humanity's existence generally haven't replaced critical thinking.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: And this is a tool That replaces critical thinking. Might replace critical thinking. Sure. It also enables it. Like, if you are a power user and, like, the access to research and the access for it to do analysis, like, I can throw it a legal document and just ask it a million questions about it, and it answers it cited to section legal document. It's amazing.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: Like, for for layman trying to do things, and when I say layman, I mean, like, people that aren't, you know, specialists in specific fields. You know, it's amazing. Like, I can be a fake lawyer. I can people can pretend that they're software engineers. Like, it it it enables people to to transcend boundaries that they've traditionally had in their lives, and it's amazing for that. But if you're using it for, like, decision making

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: That's that's where I'd say it gets scary.

Speaker 1: If you stop being able to do stuff and you only know how to prompt it, that's a very different situation.

Speaker 2: If you become and I'll quote a, wise Jordan Bloomin on this one, a meat sack guided by LML. But but, yeah, I think that's that's most of the AI craziness that I think I've got the updates on. I'm not sure if there's anything else you're looking at.

Speaker 1: Well okay. So a couple this is not AI. We'll move on. A few months ago, we talked about, North Korea's remote work.

Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. For years, the, like, the government regime there

Speaker 2: Managed service providers, IT Exactly. North Korean employees.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It was deploying folks to pose as remote Western tech workers, essentially, to evade, like, sanctions on the country and earn US salaries, bring the money back into the country. Recently, June 30, got it up here, the Department of Justice did like a whole big crackdown that revealed, like recently this whole big law enforcement operation trying to target the infrastructure. The things that I found fascinating about this, because it felt like a little bit of a resolution of a story that we told but didn't really have an end to it, was they tore down 29, they call them laptop farms. We talked a little bit about the front end. They did. Yeah. The western side of this, but it seemed very like there would be a person who who is functioning as one of this. And what they discovered was that across 16 states, there were these farms with hundreds of devices that were functioning as the front end of this kind of rift. Force. Yeah. And the other element of it so so they They

Speaker 2: were literally just proxies. Exactly. Like like technical proxies that they allow the North Koreans to jump through.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. You open a laptop. You let them proxy into the country, do the work, let them cook. US based conspirators were arrested as part of this. But the thing that I found fascinating, this was the big part of new like, piece of new information was that the role that identity theft played in all of this was that a lot of these operations not only were acting as laptop farm proxies to let the workers into American, like, IP addresses, basically, was that they would also function as, like, identity theft kind of bureaus to say you're not random made up person. You're this real person whose identity we're going to appropriately give to you, let you wield that as you go function as a remote worker. I found that super interesting.

Speaker 2: Doesn't surprise me.

Speaker 1: No. It's quite it's it's sort of intuitive that, like Yeah. If this person has a LinkedIn profile and someone goes to Google to see if the person they're talking to is really finding a LinkedIn profile, like, oh, it's a real person. It's like, there is a real person. You're just not talking to them.

Speaker 2: I wonder I'm just looping back to AI. I wonder if anybody's trained an LLM with identity information, like any of the big data broker hacks, and just, like, fed it all of the records on all of the people.

Speaker 1: Well, that's a terrifying idea. That sucks, Scott.

Speaker 2: It's definitely gonna happen at

Speaker 1: some point. Gonna happen for sure.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Oh, no. Yeah. One of the breached firms was a California based AI defense contractor Yeah. That inadvertently was hiring these people. So not quite what you're talking about, but there is a little bit of a loop back there.

Speaker 2: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I found that fascinating.

Speaker 2: Let's start with Korea up to. I feel like I have read something about them in the new news recently, but I think it was mostly, like, missile testing.

Speaker 1: Oh, no. It's the

Speaker 2: same standard mumbo jumbo that's always running our boat. But haven't heard much about them recently in the cyber news. Haven't seen too much about North Korea. Maybe they're keeping their keeping it clean.

Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sure North Korea is staying out of trouble.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm sure. Oh, I did see, though, that the one Steam user in North Korea so Steam has

Speaker 1: a map.

Speaker 2: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Steam, video game platform for anybody that doesn't know, has a map of, like, all the active users online. And there's funny. One user in North Korea that's been online since, like, 2015 or something. Times loosely correlate with Kim Jong Un's return to North Korea, I believe. So everybody just largely assumes it is him, but he has recently gone dark. Yeah. Maybe he's maybe he's changed to, like, the Epic Game Store or GOG or something like that. He's he's left the the Steam planet. So I I did read that. I thought that was hilarious.

Speaker 1: Okay. Well, I have a fun update on this. Okay. Pcgamer.com. North Korea's only Steam user disappeared yesterday. But don't worry. They're back in gaming harder than ever.

Speaker 2: There you go. Perfect.

Speaker 1: There you go. They went offline. The the they It's a

Speaker 2: little system update.

Speaker 1: Got a new press.

Speaker 2: Got a new PC. Got a new PC. Sure. There's no way it's not Kim Jong Un, which is the funniest part.

Speaker 1: So have people been able then to follow you can get a lot of information about what a person is playing, how they're playing it, all of their, like, milestones and achievements inside of a game. Do we know?

Speaker 2: I I did didn't go that far down the rabbit hole, but it sounds like you're ready to go. I'm looking. As a as a Steam power user, You you go girl.

Speaker 1: You go girl. The The map doesn't seem to let, the map doesn't let you I'm quoting here.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: The map doesn't let you get too granular, but this does seem to be the only instance of Steam use between the 38th Parallel and the Yalu River and has been for years. Reddit users noticed that the dot had winked out quote after years and years the only user on Steam in North Korea disconnected. Wow. Pyongyang's most dedicated gamer.

Speaker 2: You gotta know who it is. Like, I'm sorry, but there's nobody else in the country that that could be other than Kim Jong Un.

Speaker 1: Well, okay. This is fun. Most popular theory is falling somewhere between, they've been arrested for some reason. It's a kid in an embassy who finally learned to touch grass.

Speaker 2: Oh, maybe. That that could be it.

Speaker 1: And it's literally Kim Jong un, and he's offline when he upgrades his GPU. Exactly.

Speaker 2: He got a fifty ninety. That's why he went offline.

Speaker 1: Yeah. But Kim Jong un is an iMac user, so that that ain't it.

Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. You think he's pro gamer? He's a pervasive video collector, if I recall correctly. He, like, collects videos. He loves Western film. So it only makes sense that if he likes Western storytelling that he would like Western video games.

Speaker 1: He strikes me as a steelbook kinda guy. I feel like he's got a a physical media collection.

Speaker 2: Yeah. DVDs. Got a world's greatest DVD collection. I wonder what games he plays. I would assume he's, like, standard stuff, like standard AAA fare, if I had to guess.

Speaker 1: I wonder if there's I would imagine that online games might pose some kind of a, like, exposure risk, though he's visible on Steam, so maybe he doesn't care.

Speaker 2: He's also the leader of the country.

Speaker 1: Yeah. No. That that insulates. Yeah. No. More so that people would know if he wasn't good. Mhmm. You know? Like, you can you can be bad at Baldur's Gate.

Speaker 2: Elon Musk's situation.

Speaker 1: Exactly. You know what I mean? Like, it's Yeah. You wanna be bad at a game privately that's very different than being, you know, the supreme leader of an isolationist nation getting revealed as having a bad KD ratio. Like, that's just

Speaker 2: in CS?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Exactly.

Speaker 2: Could you imagine jumping into, like, a ranked CS game and Kim Jong Un was on your team?

Speaker 1: Oh my god. Stream that.

Speaker 2: Oh my god.

Speaker 1: What happened with Musk in game like, what was the game that he got called out for being a

Speaker 2: new Diablo? A new Diablo. I don't know what the final resolution was, but he was it seems like there's there's a main narrative, which is that Elon Musk is, like, a top ranked player of the game. Yeah. Does it as a way to decompress at the end of the day? There's another narrative that he pays somebody to level his player, and there was videos being streamed and posted while Musk was, like, in the White House.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: So there's, like, this whole but who knows if the recordings were real time or you know, there's a whole

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a I'm sure it's a whole thing. And then

Speaker 2: there's a third narrative where Musk claims not to even own a computer, so I'm not entirely sure.

Speaker 1: Well, one of those can't be true.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It says from a quick look that he was a he claimed to be among the top 20 players were worldwide, but later admitted to account sharing and using other methods to level up his characters in Diablo four and Path of Exile two. I haven't heard of the latter. Interesting.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So Kim Jong un, Elon Musk, the next world war is just the two of them. That's matching.

Speaker 1: I wonder if I wonder if if if Un and the kid in the embassy the fictional kid in the embassy.

Speaker 2: I like that I like that

Speaker 1: theory too. That's fun.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one.

Speaker 1: I don't know what countries have embassies in North Korea, but the idea that there's one kid in there who's just putting miles on a Steam account.

Speaker 2: You gotta assume China, Russia.

Speaker 1: I'm trying to

Speaker 2: think who else might have one. Yeah. Russian kids love to game. And Chinese kids.

Speaker 1: Kids everywhere.

Speaker 2: Rock and roll. Right? Steam. Kids. So the one user

Speaker 1: Mhmm. Steam is getting I feel like there's been a so gaming. We're gonna shoot let's move over to gaming. Xbox will announce the I think it's the Xbox ROG Ally something something. It's got, like, a nine one. Handheld? Bingo. But it doesn't run normal Xbox games. What it does is runs the Xbox Cloud Game Pass, I think they call it. I had it for a while and Steam. So it's basically just a Windows handheld with this, like, kind of Xbox y front end, but as of right now, it doesn't necessarily play your back Xbox catalog unless you have Game Pass and play it over the cloud, which is also true of, like, iPads and smart refrigerators. Right? You're making a face because that sounds weird, and it is. Are you sure about that? Let's make sure Because before I say it on the Internet publicly. You've already said it. So you I've already said

Speaker 2: it. Correct yourself. But I I would contest by saying as somebody who's built an Xbox Yeah. Release, you just build it as a Windows game. It just has an Xbox framework layer that you tap into, same as PlayStation, except PlayStation is obviously a unique set of hardware where when you're building and compiling for Xbox, it's literally just you're building a Windows executable. Mhmm. So to me, it would make no sense that it couldn't and shouldn't be released running Xbox games. I know it has the Xbox Launcher. I also know that they've come out, which is the big the big news on this and said that they will support third party game stores on it,

Speaker 1: so you won't be able to have the Steam. Yeah.

Speaker 2: And Epic and GOG and all that stuff.

Speaker 1: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Speaker 2: So they're but the thing is too is that it's they're in like, it's real money. Like, it's no longer subsidized hardware. Like, the Xboxes have classically cost Microsoft more than we pay for them. And they I don't think they're going that route anymore. So I think they're, what, like, they're, like, a thousand, 1,100 US, I think, launched

Speaker 1: based they.

Speaker 2: For the good one.

Speaker 1: Interesting. They also it's look I someone correct me in the comments, but everything I'm seeing about what you can do is you can play games installed in your Xbox console remotely from your RRG Xbox Ally x. Like, there's a lot of marketing copy talking about all the great ways you can play your game through the cloud via some secondary service. Like Interesting. I think that might be the case. I could be wrong. Talking to me. Someone correct me. They also rolled out a I think they're doing a collab with Meta as well to do a Xbox branded, I don't know if it's a Quest two or three. One of the Quests.

Speaker 2: It's gonna be a Xbox accessory?

Speaker 1: Exactly. But that again is, I think, the same kind of you can remote beam in. Like, you can cloud game basically through Xbox app, on the Meta Quest.

Speaker 2: Surprising to me because, like, the I I looked at the hardware specs briefly for the RogAlly Microsoft Xbox edition, whatever the 12 word name is for it. Mhmm. And it's essentially like a power laptop.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: The only thing that it doesn't have, to the best of my knowledge, I'll couch it all of this and that, is a discrete GPU. I think it's still using embedded graphics processing, but it's essentially using AMD's premium, like, extreme level laptop chip, which means that it'll probably crunch battery as well as it should have the processing power to at least fare as well as the Xbox Series s, I would assume. Mhmm. But it could be the lack of a discrete GPU that's giving it the headache, which is maybe why they've gone to an offloading thing. But, like, none of those handhelds have discrete GPUs.

Speaker 1: No. And a Steam Deck

Speaker 2: know of anyway.

Speaker 1: No. Yeah. A Steam Deck, I mean, a Steam Deck obviously can run a Steam library locally on the device. It's not streaming from the cloud. Yeah. I don't know the technical back end of of how that works. The Verge, quote, naturally, Microsoft will market this as an Xbox in the same way that it calls laptops, TVs, and phones an Xbox if they're capable of streaming games, from Xbox cloud gaming. Microsoft has never done an Xbox VR headset. This is in regards to the Quest, and this is, clearly as close as we're getting to one for now. Yeah. I think that Microsoft is in some kind of transitional phase

Speaker 2: You think?

Speaker 1: Of, like, what of what an Xbox is right now?

Speaker 2: We've done let's have a let's talk about this because they just laid off 9,000 people.

Speaker 1: Really?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hit the news today. Game cancellations cuts additional 9,000 people strongly in the gaming side of their business. I think Xbox Studios and Xbox Wow. Like, the I feel like they've done a really good job with Game Pass. They've bought in a lot of really good studios.

Speaker 1: I like Game Pass.

Speaker 2: A lot of games. Yeah. They haven't had at least in my eyes, they haven't had the colossal flops that Sony's had. Like, Sony had that one game that was up for, like, seven days that they spent 700,000,000 on or whatever, and they, like, literally shut it down and turned the lights off.

Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: So it's like I feel like they've done a pretty good job in the gaming as a service space, and I feel like this is like, them not releasing their own hardware but doing a cobranded piece with ROG, I feel like it's them playing into that.

Speaker 1: I think so.

Speaker 2: Like, it's like they've taken the reins as distributor in chief. And I think that they've owned that space a bit, and I think they're comfy with it. Reoccurring cash models of the Game Pass system, good for them. I'm not sure how it's gonna play out long term. But

Speaker 1: Yeah. I would say

Speaker 2: I was gonna say there's a lot going on in the AAA game space, and Yeah. Xbox isn't immune to it.

Speaker 1: I think there's a couple things. On one hand, if we look at leaving the games as a service and just thinking about consoles, last console generation, there is I'm assuming this is backed up by the sales numbers. A story at very least that Xbox lost that generation. PlayStation five won it. Nintendo Switch is just off to selling a trillion copies.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: Now we're starting to enter into the the beginning of the stage. Nintendo has always been kind of staggered from the Sony Xbox releases. They just dropped Switch two

Speaker 2: Yeah. Totally.

Speaker 1: 5,000,000 units. I got They're their

Speaker 2: own niche.

Speaker 1: They're their

Speaker 2: own thing.

Speaker 1: PlayStation one, it's kind of the second generation that they won the hardware side of things. So you've taken an l on two generations of hardware. And meanwhile, Steam, which is run on hardware that your parent company manufactures Oh, really? Is a money printer. It's an infinite money printer. And you go, well, we've we've lost on two gens of hardware. Meanwhile, we make the hardware that the money printer runs on. Can we go ahead and make a money printer, please?

Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm gonna jump in and just correct you before you get lit in the comments. Microsoft doesn't make the hardware. They make the software plat

Speaker 1: for them. This is you are I misspoke. You are correct.

Speaker 2: No. No. No. No. I knew exactly what you're saying, but I knew somebody would feel the need to pipe in No. No. You're you're saving you from that.

Speaker 1: Yeah. You are right.

Speaker 2: They make the But you're correct. Windows, the operating system, the software platforms, DirectX, all the rest of it, all made by Microsoft, leveraged by everybody.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: I'm more curious to see if Apple can do anything to punch you into the gaming, especially seeing as they have infinite GPU memory essentially at this point.

Speaker 1: Yeah. But now a MacBook is an Xbox. Right? Like that. And it and all of that Apple silicon power doesn't matter for shit. Like, it just

Speaker 2: Well, it it does because A little. But Like, in the background of my video Yeah. There's a Google Stadia sitting on my bench of consoles. Yeah. None of you can see this listening, but Jordan can see it. I have an NVIDIA Pro TV box and the controller for it. I play Magic the Gathering online on it because it's the only game that I'll stream to it that doesn't look and play Yeah. In a way that I don't wanna play it. Like, I have a PC. I have a PlayStation. I have an Xbox. I have a Switch. I have a lot of consoles, and and I won't play a cloud game unless it's something that literally just isn't a game that I need it to not be a cloud game. Like and, like, Magic the Gathering Arena is the perfect one. It's a great game to play in a cloud service. I could play it on my TV. I can play it at the lake. I can play it wherever I want. Play it at the mountains. Sure. And it's not an issue. But if it's any kind of real game, I'm downloading it from my PC and putting it on one of my consoles. Exactly. I don't wanna stream it. I wanna play it. I don't want that latency. I don't want that, you know, artifacting and compression. I don't want like, I don't even turn frame gen on.

Speaker 1: Like,

Speaker 2: I don't use d l s DLSS on any game. Like, I pay for a better GPU so that I can have native frames of over a 120.

Speaker 1: And I appreciate that there's a lot of people for whom, like, fidelity and response times are less important.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: But it doesn't feel I'm I'm just trying to think of who that person is that's, like, I'm willing to spend 2, like, 2 to $3,000 for a MacBook Pro for gaming, but I don't care about those things. It's like, oh, that's a tiny intersection of people. Like, we have a house guest staying with us who games a lot Mhmm. And bought a MacBook Pro and basically can run stuff in NVIDIA GeForce Now.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Which is like a smart fridge can do that. Totally. Like

Speaker 2: Yeah. You can buy a $100 dongle that plugs in your TV that makes it function essentially. And and I guess I should state before I get lit in the comments that it's like, I am in a privileged position. I do make games for a living. I have a lot of hardware. I play competitive games, and I don't wanna have ghosting. Like, I don't wanna have any of the artifact in the compressions, any of that stuff, the additional latency. Like, I look to remove those things from my chain rather than add them.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: And that is a privileged thing to say, but it's like, I don't know who the market is. Like, the thing that I'm more the Mac side of it, the thing that I'd be more interested in is, like, not to talk about LLMs, but, like, you can buy a Mac Studio with a half a terabyte of unified memory of which you can allocate, like, hundreds of gigs to VRAM. The the memory bus speed in that Mac Studio is ridiculously fast. Like, it's like pro level Nvidia hardware fast. It's faster than, like, my graphics card. It's like at some point, Mac like, Mac has already built themselves a gaming platform. Nobody's just using it yet. And I'm intrigued if they're ever gonna break into that market.

Speaker 1: If they do, so every dub dub, they're breaking into the gaming market.

Speaker 2: Of course. Yes.

Speaker 1: And twenty years on or however long they've been doing that.

Speaker 2: Civilization on your laptop just fine.

Speaker 1: Sweet. A seventh game that I can play on this system. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Speaker 2: So Love Civilization, by the way. That wasn't a knock on Civ. I do have it installed on my laptop, and I do play it on my Mac.

Speaker 1: I we have it on the iPad. It runs great. But I don't know if they're the reason games don't work great on Mac. I think it's dev side.

Speaker 2: Yeah. For sure it is. Yeah. It's like it's like I bought so I made a prediction a couple years ago between friends that Xbox Series X would beat PlayStation three even though Xbox had lost previous hardware battles. And I lost like, that's not the case. PS three still crushed Xbox. And the reason why I did it is because that essentially the platform for the the developer experience, the DX of it, building for Xbox and building for Windows are very similar. So, like, everybody's building a Windows delivery for their game. Almost every single game is platform one, Windows PC. Platform two, you know, PlayStation. But you need a new dev kit. You need new hardware connects. You need all this other stuff to make it function on a PlayStation where the Xbox just kinda gets it for free because it's loosely and I might have overstated it earlier, but it's loosely a Windows PC. Yeah. So it's like the Mac version of that is a world of difference. Mhmm. Like, they don't have that developer experience. It's not juiced in as tightly. Like, I can't just download Unreal Engine and crank out a game for Windows and then just push the selector and say and also make it shippable on Mac. It does doesn't work like that. So I think I think they've I agree with you. Long way of saying that I agree

Speaker 1: with you.

Speaker 2: It's the developer side that's caused the problem.

Speaker 1: Or ship to Nintendo Switch two and make infinite money because everybody has one of those.

Speaker 2: You've gotta give it, like, because they jack the price. I don't know what your new one cost, but aren't they, like, 400 US

Speaker 1: for

Speaker 2: the first two?

Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's $6.99 CAD, 4 hundo US, I wanna say.

Speaker 2: $4.99 Canadian or $4.99 US probably then?

Speaker 1: Or $6.99 with the Mario Kart bundle, if I remember correctly. Yeah. It wasn't cheap. It was a No. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Because that was the big push for the first switch. The first switch was, like, like, $200, $150.

Speaker 1: It was very affordable

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Unless you had to buy it from a scalper, which everyone did. And this time, they turned up the price and made a lot of them. So it it was you may not have been able to get it on launch day, but you probably were able to find within a couple days of launch. And that's pretty remarkable for a consumer tech product that sold as many units as it did. Totally. It's, it's gonna be a hit.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it already is a hit.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I I don't know why I'm future tensing it. It's a hit.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It's a hit. The I I haven't bought one. I haven't played any of the new games. I hear the upresing and upscaling that's going on in some of the because, like, I I this is it. This is just me hearing it passively and reading about it. But, like, if you owned some of the Zelda games and stuff, you could buy, like, a $10 upgrade

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Or 10 US dollar upgrade.

Speaker 1: They,

Speaker 2: gave you new, like, LODs, like, new graphics packs and stuff and made it look way better.

Speaker 1: I was pretty mad not mad, but I was mildly salty that that cost 15 Canadian dollars to get Mhmm. Slightly up resed version

Speaker 2: of a bigger

Speaker 1: that labor would have gone into packaging it up and deploying and all that. It seemed a little rich

Speaker 2: for what

Speaker 1: you got.

Speaker 2: $700 on the

Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, the hole in your pocket is still there. It's sunk cost at that point. It does look better, but it didn't feel like it took a big leap forward. It felt like especially Tears of the Kingdom Mhmm. Which sorry if you haven't played that. But for anyone that has, like, you build things in that game in a massive open world with a three d camera, which means you can be holding multiple things and spinning a camera around, which is just like Mhmm. Poison for the frame rate of that game. Mhmm. And it showed on the original Nintendo Switch. So it was less like a, wow, I've leaped into the future and more like a, wow, I've leaped into the present kinda moment for Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. Mario Kart's pretty fun.

Speaker 2: Is it? Yeah. They did a good job. Open world? I I've heard it

Speaker 1: was underwhelming. It's not it kinda depends on how you feel about Mario Kart. Like, it's a Mario Kart game. And if you're expecting it to suddenly become a whole new experience, you're gonna be disappointed. Yeah. But it's like a a novel version of a familiar experience. The ability to kinda just drive off the track and go explore and find these little missions is pretty cool. I was having a conversation with someone about how there's gonna be a really good DLC for that game because all of the missions all the stuff you can do in the world feels a little bit underbaked, but the world is so cool and interesting that you could imagine a layer of, like, I want Grand Theft Auto Kart. I want, like, big missions that take me from one corner of the world to the other. More of that kind of stuff. I think when they drop that, it'll really keep people in it. But it's pretty cool.

Speaker 2: Everything I've heard is that it felt undercooked. So that was good. It's like it it felt like they were like, we don't have an open world Zelda to launch this new hardware with. Totally. So, like, how can we make a launch title open world and, like, special in x amount of months. And it's like, okay. Let's just make a Mario Kart open world, but you drive between the races, and there's, like, small challenges along the way to get rings or something. You collect something. Stickers. Stickers. Yeah. Anyway, where it sounds like like when I originally heard, like, they're making an open world Mario Kart, I I was thinking, like Yeah. Like, big, like, GTA. Like, it's gonna be cool or, like, four is this in Forza I have on?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Forza is the famous

Speaker 2: opening one. And I was like, wow. Like, it's gonna be so cool. And then everything I heard after, I was like, yeah. It's fun.

Speaker 1: It's fun. It's, It's Mario Kart. It it it's it's cool new Mario Kart, but it's not wildly new. It was fun though. Like, my partner had never really played a Mario Kart game before. So for her, it's like, it's her favorite Mario Kart. It's it's it's a really good Mario Kart game. And if you just want that with this kind of two thirds of the way their open world element added to it, it's great. The knockout tours, you do these instead of laps around a series of courses. It's this one long continuous race. That's great and feels really new. It just needs a little bit more of that. Donkey Kong Bonanza, I think is gonna be the platforming open world game that is I think that one's gonna catch people by surprise. It comes out in, I think, two weeks. I'm excited for that. Mostly because I love games about apes and monkeys. So

Speaker 2: it's gonna be sad. Was there was there a Mario launch title with the Switch two?

Speaker 1: No.

Speaker 2: No. So they're really, like, they're big franchises. Yeah. But, like, not Mario, like classic Proper. Like Mario. No. No. So Mario, Zelda, didn't get it.

Speaker 1: There's no Mario or Zelda.

Speaker 2: Yet. So the next versions of those are gonna be the Yeah. The real games. Like, I

Speaker 1: could've sold 7,000,000 game frames instead of five.

Speaker 2: I did hear that Mario Odyssey's little $10 upgrade pack actually is pretty exceptional.

Speaker 1: I didn't know they did an upgrade for that. I really like Mario Odyssey. Odyssey. Odyssey. Orgyssey. Right. So,

Speaker 2: yeah, triple a gaming, aside from Nintendo, very interesting spot these days. Quite interested to see what's gonna happen in that space, especially with, like, seeing as we're just in a gaming episode now. There's, like, the some of the indies that have come out, like, game of the year contenders, like, is it called Claire's Expedition 33?

Speaker 1: Is that right? Yeah. There was someone in line for that when I was in line for the Nintendo Switch. Expedition 33 Claire Obscure. Apparently Claire Obscure. Is an amazing game. Yeah. But she was in line

Speaker 2: for that studio?

Speaker 1: She was in a 100 person lineup for that game. And at some point, the person came out, was going down the line and asking what everyone wanted. She said, oh, I'm here for that game. And, like, in unison, the whole lineup turned towards her. And the sales clerk was like, you don't need to be doing this. Just come in and buy it. These people are here for Nintendo Switches. And we were all like, that's kind of what we were suggesting. It feels like you could skip this line. And she went in and came up.

Speaker 2: Sell your spot to somebody else.

Speaker 1: Right? She went in and came up forty five seconds later and, like, held it up and cheered. And everyone was so excited for her by that point that they yelled as though she got the switch. It was very cute. Yeah. People love that game. It's like a old school RPG, like a proper RPG experience, but triple a modern 2025.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like a JRPG format, but made by a French studio. Small team. Beautiful. Like, I've seen a little bit of the gameplay for it, and it looks great. So Very, like, cool UX design. Like, it just looks like something I'll have to make the time to play at some point.

Speaker 1: I'm into it. I love me a JRPG. I haven't played them in a long time, but I like the idea of one capturing my attention because I was such a hardcore, like, Final Fantasy kid, and then it fell off at, like, 12, give or take. So I like the idea of getting dragged back into it by some French people.

Speaker 2: Your Switch story reminded me of back in the day before digital distribution

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: Where you'd literally, like Yeah. Games would drop and outside of every Best Buy and Future Shop. Haven't said that word in a long time.

Speaker 1: Oh, weird. The Canadian Best Buy. And is Best Buy Canadian? I I don't know. Think so.

Speaker 2: No. I don't think so. I think that's American. Okay.

Speaker 1: But

Speaker 2: there would be, like, lineups at midnight. Yeah. They would hold, like, special launch parties and, like like, I remember, like, it just madness. They don't do that anymore because it's digital distribution. You prepay for it. It predownloads. Then at midnight, it just lets you play it. So Yeah.

Speaker 1: I remember doing that for Resident Evil four at the future shop.

Speaker 2: At the future shop.

Speaker 1: At the future shop. So, like, a thousand year old man. Yeah. Exactly. That was good fun.

Speaker 2: Back in my day, we had the future.

Speaker 1: We went to the future shop

Speaker 2: by the diskette. Yeah. Exactly. World of Warcraft, I remember. I think when it launched or one of its, like, expansion packs would have been early two thousands. I remember I was a kid and, like, seeing just thousands of people piled in front of, like, having a wow cosplay party.

Speaker 1: Remember that.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I

Speaker 1: remember there was a lineup at the Costco because they sold Costco. They sold PC games at the Costco. Now we

Speaker 2: have Steam.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Now we have Steam.

Speaker 2: Games do you want?

Speaker 1: Ugh. I do love you some Steam. I got looped into a friend's, like, family

Speaker 2: Plan?

Speaker 1: Yeah. I was just would say, Valve, if you're listening to this, everything that follows is is parody. I got added to a a Steam family pass of a of a of a good friend with a very large Steam library, and it's been that plus the Steam Deck has been a real joy. It was, like, for the cost of a Steam Deck, I got couple 100 video

Speaker 2: games. Oh, the games.

Speaker 1: It was really good.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Parody. Good parody.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Good parody. That was wasn't that a fun little bit of improv we just did?

Speaker 2: Oh, man.

Speaker 1: Identity attacks, phishing, Identity attacks, phishing, credential stuffing, session hijacking, account takeover. These are the number one causes of breaches right now, but most security tools still focus on endpoints and networks and infrastructure. And meanwhile, the browser, the place where all that stuff is really happening, where people actually work, that's been mostly ignored. Push changes that. They do. They've built a lightweight browser extension that observes identity activity in real time. It gives you

Speaker 2: visibility into how identities are being used across your organization, like, when identities are being used across your organization, like when logins get multifactor, when passwords get reused, or when someone unknowingly enters credentials into a spoofed login page. Then when something risky is detected, push enforces protections right there in the browser. No waiting, no tickets, no compromise. It's visibility and control directly at the identity layer.

Speaker 1: And it's not just about prevention. They monitor for real time threats like adversary in the middle attacks, stolen session tokens, and even newer techniques like cross IDP impersonation, where the attacker bypasses SSO and MFA and registers their own identity provider. Think about it all taken together. It's sort of like endpoint detection response, but for the browser.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And the people behind it, amazing. All offensive security pros, published tons of research, came on our pod, talked about their their software, their backgrounds, their everything. They break down exactly how these things work. And, yeah. They are great. So definitely check it out. Identity is the new endpoint, and Push is treating it that way. Check them out. Pushsecurity.com.

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Speaker 2: Okay. Where do we wanna go from gaming in our random chat? Is there anything fun and exciting in consumer tech that's happened?

Speaker 1: Not to my knowledge. I heard that the Apple f one movie is just is very good and a lot of product placement. Like, someone I got a text message that said, f one is Top Gun with cars and product placement. So I I guess that went well for them. I Probably it's kinda consumer tech adjacent.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the it's funny. Like, I the original things I heard is that the movie was better than expected because I think everybody had a pretty cynical opinion of how bad it was gonna be, but it turns out it was actually pretty good. Yeah. In the sense that, like, could have been way worse.

Speaker 1: Yeah. They spent, I think, so much money. So for anyone that doesn't know, the reason we're talking about this in a poorly transition to consumer tech section

Speaker 2: is because Apple Paid for it.

Speaker 1: Paid made a movie about f one. But they got Joseph Kosinski who directed Top Gun Maverick. So you've got a person who's pretty good at doing a story about, like, the old hotshot pilot driver man comes back and for one last race, like, kind of vibe. But it's about cars instead of airplanes.

Speaker 2: And I'm gambling away is life. Is that the clock? Yeah. I think so. I think it might be. Amazing. Amazing.

Speaker 1: And it's Brad Pittston and Tom Cruise. It's all, like, almost a one to one.

Speaker 2: Were they using Lewis Hamilton wannabe? That's fine. Second male lead, I think. Yeah. Okay. Okay. But, also, Lewis sorry. No. No. No. Finish your

Speaker 1: I have nothing good

Speaker 2: to say. Nothing to talk about this. Lewis did, apparently, like because they were filming. Like, it was done in partnership with the actual f one. They had full licensing and rights. And

Speaker 1: It's a two hour ad that cost a couple $100,000,000. Yeah. I would also participate in that film.

Speaker 2: I think the f one let's just back this up. The Netflix show Drive to Survive has been so successful at making the f one a part of popular culture that they were like, what's next? Let's make a Hollywood film. Sure. And Apple probably showed up and said, we'll pay for it for exclusive distribution for it, and they were like, deal. Let's sell $500,000,000 in product placements and sponsorships because these cars are covered in sponsorships anyway. So yeah. So I think it it was I think the f one is really setting the, like, sports entertainment, like, content. Like, they figure they're figuring it out better than like, everybody else has a drive to survive now. There's one for the Tour de France. There's one for tennis. There's one for golf. It's like the the production company that came up with that format is just out there being like, who's got a $100,000,000 and wants to be cool? And everybody's putting their hand up, and they're like, cool. And I think that, like, the f one's like, okay. Like, we've did that. Like, we have two and a half billion new fans. What's the next thing? How do we market and profit from this fan base? Let's make a

Speaker 1: Top Gun.

Speaker 2: Triple a movie. Yeah. Let's make Top Gun.

Speaker 1: Let's make Top Gun Maverick, but it's about cars this time. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's super smart. I you and I both enjoy are hockey enjoyers.

Speaker 2: Mhmm. As Canadians do.

Speaker 1: As Canadians. It's legally mandated. They test you at the airport. And it I remember a couple years after the f one show. It's like, okay. Now there's a hockey one. Mhmm. They're just gonna do it for every sport because you have this massive built in audience that likes watching the content on their television, and the content has an off season. Mhmm. It's such a smart idea to just be like, can we just do doc style filming? They're all used to being filmed when they're playing the game. Can we just film when they're not? It's very smart. Everyone's Instagram channel gets a boost. Like, it it it's a win win for everybody.

Speaker 2: I listened to, an interview with the executive producer of, I think, the original Drive to Survive series, and then he's gone off now to do the thing. He did the first season of the NHL one, the hockey one. And, he was talking about how they literally interview the players at to pick the ones that they're gonna follow around, and they have, like, a scoring criteria of, like, like, all this stuff. And, like, they choose not just the ones that might have a good seasonal arc

Speaker 1: Mhmm. But

Speaker 2: also the ones that'll be the most interesting and most flexible for camera and, like, they shoot screen tests of them and, like, do everything. So, like, they they produce it. Like, it's a real Yeah. Produced documentary. Well, produced documentary.

Speaker 1: But There's a huge incentive to be on something like that.

Speaker 2: Totally.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a big old

Speaker 2: Unless you're a bad person.

Speaker 1: This is true. And then you just don't go on the show that reveals how bad you are. A great lesson for a lot of people that show up on television shows.

Speaker 2: Totally. Like, Ricardo, f one driver, very popular from the first few seasons of the f one show. I'm not sure if you watched the f one one, Drive to Survive, Has a huge personal brand. People, like, want him like, he had a diminished career as the show went on. I'll say politely.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: And he got cut from his team, and, like, people still want him back. Like, he's such a fan favorite. The people love him. That, like, there is a groundswell organic movement to, like, see him have a significant role in f one. So it's like he's directly, like, being rewarded from his participation in that show because he was so personable and people liked him, and he's so much fun and etcetera etcetera.

Speaker 1: K. I'm gonna drag us back to our topic sort of. It's it's off of this but it it veers us back in that direction. I was thinking about this the other day and we could just brainstorm it on mic in this very last bonus episode was that at some point we should make a show. And I don't know if you can call it hackathon. The show that may already be a thing. Mhmm. But my partner loves, like, reality competition shows. Like, it'll be a show where you take a craft. The Great British Sewing Bee, Bake Off.

Speaker 2: Bake Off.

Speaker 1: There's sewing ones and

Speaker 2: Love Island. I know where you're going.

Speaker 1: Knife making and all this kind of crazy crap.

Speaker 2: Sure. Sure.

Speaker 1: I wanna make one. If you're a television broadcaster, we make shows as of the day this drops, so get in touch. I wanna make a hackathon one where you get, like, developers and artists and engineers and tinkers and makers. I was I've gone to the, like, maker space hack hack space here in the city where I live. And I was like, every one of these people I just wanna put up a poster that says make a team of four people and apply to be on a game show, like a competition show, where every episode you have to make a new thing. Some weeks it's software centric, and so certain skills work better. Others Yeah. It's maybe more games based, and so there's an art preference. You do one week, then it's a physical thing. And suddenly, people have to figure out how to engineer something physical. But I love the idea of, like, a hackathon competition show. I've been in enough game jams that I'm like, I know there's drama in them. I wanna do it at some point. So I'm I'm putting that out into the universe an hour and five minutes into a very loose bonus episode, that I wanna make that.

Speaker 2: I think it's a good idea. I think finding the format structure

Speaker 1: for it

Speaker 2: to be there's two ways you can go with it. You go niche

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: And it could be, like, extra cool. Yep. But for the small audience You're right. You gotta pick Or you could go, like, poppy, which would be very kind of uncool for the niche, but would be maybe more applicable to the to the general public. Mhmm.

Speaker 1: Do you know which one person? Software mechanic. Like, there's you have to think about what kinds of people could really thrive and what kind of challenges would be best to film and what kinds of people work based on the challenges. There's a whole thing there, but I've just never quite maybe it exists. Comment if there's a version of that show that exists, but it's the game jam thing. It's like a big enough game jams that I'm like, there's something here. Then you go to Defcon, and you're like, oh, this is all all the right parts for one of these.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm gonna go Yeah. I'm gonna I'm gonna snap back the the thought that came into my head. K. You seen Undercover Boss?

Speaker 1: I'm familiar with the format.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I've never I think maybe I've seen it on an airplane once.

Speaker 1: I think I've seen clips on the Internet. Bored. What

Speaker 2: if you did a show like that called, like, Red Hat, and you had companies agree to be attacked,

Speaker 3: and you had

Speaker 1: Oh, sure.

Speaker 2: Teams of Red Hats, like, actively hacking into those companies? That's pretty fun. Red Hat. Red Hat's Red Hat. Company.

Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of my mind. That's true. Black Hat.

Speaker 2: Black Hat. You call it Black Hat, and you have teams of hackers attack an enterprise that's agreed to be attacked. Oh, that's pretty good. And then you kind of record it.

Speaker 1: Oh, that's pretty good. Yeah. Because that's that's the competition show angle, but instead of a weekly thing to make something. So those are different, but that's fun. It's like you have to break into this.

Speaker 2: But then you also get the situations where it's like, hey, Fortune 500 company. Like, do you wanna be on a live TV advertisement where we talk about you? You're gonna get a $2,000,000 security audit for

Speaker 1: free. Yeah.

Speaker 2: And and we're gonna turn it into and you'll have enough time, and recommendations will come through afterwards. Like, maybe you partner with some some, like, offensive securities company.

Speaker 1: Partner with a company that does that already in say

Speaker 2: I'm thinking I'm thinking like the like, Adam from Push, like, when we had him on He, like, worked at some boutique

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: Kind of, like, offensive sec company. You, like, partner with them, and they become the team. And then on the flip side, you get, like, enterprises being like, yeah. We have the greatest security ever. Good luck. And then it's like, okay. And it's, like, forty eight hours later.

Speaker 1: Well, it reminds me of when we went to Defcon, and we went and saw an episode I really enjoyed. It's worth checking out. We went to the social engineering competition. And immediately, you're sitting in this this room watching people construct these lies, these really incredible narratives to try and get through a security process and you're like, this would make such good television, but you could never do it because more often than not the people on the other side of the call are just normal people who haven't consented to be on television and are being lied to. But if you got the consent of the organization, that shifts it a little bit and suddenly that whole social engineering, how do you construct the lie becomes, viable for, well, content. I would watch.

Speaker 2: I don't know all the details about it. It popped up in my news feed. I briefly looked through it, but there was a lawsuit around the social engineering village at Defcon.

Speaker 1: No way.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So there was, I think the the lawsuit I remember correctly was that in summary judgment, six of the seven, not charges, but, like, lawsuits, legal complaints were shot down with, like, with prejudice by the summary, like, judge. So I'm not exactly sure the details about it, and it's something that we should probably chat about on a real episode

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Because we especially because we talked about that at length. Yeah. But, I did see that, and we should talk about that when we've read the details on it. And I don't just wanna spitball on it because it is our community, and I don't wanna

Speaker 1: No. Because we I'm I'm looking at the headlines, but I think you're right. We should come back to this. Okay. So we got a we got a proper episode

Speaker 2: There you go.

Speaker 1: Thing to dig into. A story for a real episode, not like a fake episode. There's fake bonus sodes. But what yeah. If you work at a large television network and wanna make a a crazy techie competition show, we clearly have a lot of ideas, so you should you should get in touch.

Speaker 2: True true story. Well, not to you. You know the story. But when Hacked went off the air years ago and we were making a TV show, we actually came up with, like, seven show concepts.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2: Like, we have a catalog of, like, fun, technical TV shows that would be fun. The one that I'm most sad that didn't get made that I did see get made was we were gonna do one called solving solving Satoshi. Someone made that. Yeah. So, like, ten years ago, we pitched doing essentially a show around pursuing the creator of Bitcoin and, like, trying to solve who Satoshi was. And would have been a fun show.

Speaker 1: And then

Speaker 2: I think a few years ago, somebody actually did green light it and make it. It might have been Netflix, maybe. Can't remember.

Speaker 1: Not sure. There's a bunch of them. There was, like, Money Electric, which I think was HBO, And then there was a bunch of I remember seeing that there was Everything But Solving Satoshi, which was our concept for it was, like, searching for Satoshi and finding Satoshi. There's a bunch of those. It's just it's a great it's a great concept Yeah. But not as great

Speaker 2: as world mystery.

Speaker 1: Black Hat, the competition show. Yes.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Get at us. You like it, don't you?

Speaker 1: I do. It's fun. I think I just want to we made podcasts. We've made a lot of doc y stuff. I I wanna make a a competition puzzle game type thing. I love game design, and I love nonfiction. I'm like, I wanna make a game show. That's the that's the new medium short term goal. I wanna make a game show. I think we don't.

Speaker 2: I feel I feel like a and this like, we're just in it here. The a a show like Black Hat Yep. I feel like has some, like, undercover boss, real wide span. You know, you put makeup all over CEO and send him into the Burger King to flip burgers and see how his company actually operates. I feel like you could get such a really, like you could have such an interesting, like, red team, blue team dynamics. Like, you could you could you could film some stuff that I think regular people would find interesting and would really speak to the niche that we live in.

Speaker 1: Yes. I think the reason these stories have some overlap outside of security folks is because they're fundamentally, like, human interest stories. It's about people and deception and truth and lies and looking someone in the eye and saying something that may or may not be true. Like, they're really it makes for good stories. It's also, there's a procedure to it, and procedurals reveal that procedure makes for good narrative, predictable steps, with variations inside of it where creativity can exist. It's why hacking stories make for good content.

Speaker 2: But the the just to keep keep chatting. Personalities. Yeah. Our our community is full of personalities.

Speaker 1: Big ones. Big ones. Yeah.

Speaker 2: And big personalities make for big TV. I'm just self justifying this idea to myself more and more.

Speaker 1: We've already green lit it, and there's no one here to gonna. Yeah. Yeah. We've we've sold ourselves on the

Speaker 2: common set. I'm putting together a bible tonight.

Speaker 1: Yes. Great.

Speaker 2: I mean

Speaker 1: yeah. We'll we'll pitch it.

Speaker 2: Oh, man. What else do we wanna talk about? Have we talked about anything cybersecurity related besides our fantastic TV show idea?

Speaker 1: And it is fantastic. We talked about North Korea and the remote worker stuff.

Speaker 2: Talked about we just gotta keep those people happy, people that need to hear the cybersecurity stuff.

Speaker 1: That's what we're here for. It's it's the bread and butter. It's the We

Speaker 2: talked about AI because I'm high key obsessed with it and can't love the cape. Yeah. It's crazy. We talked about them playing board games, which is fun. I really really need somebody to take those, like, eighteen hour Twitch streams and cut them down into, like, twenty five minute YouTube episodes.

Speaker 1: I wanna find this game, this video I saw, AI game train fake what the heck was it called? Reverse Turing Test. Thank you, Google. Mhmm. It was a game where I don't know if it was to me

Speaker 2: that they're a human? I have

Speaker 1: to convince the AIs that they're AI. So it's a reverse touring test. So what it was was it's a train car. I I don't know if it was VR or just first person video game. I think it might have been VR. And it's a train car. And you're sitting with, three other historical figures. I think it was Cleopatra, Genghis Khan, and maybe Edison. I can't remember. But the idea is that each one of them is being piloted by a large language model. It the text appears, it speaks, reverse, you get the idea. So you're talking with these three other AIs, but you're speaking out loud. Your speech is being transcribed into text and fed into them. So the way you talk doesn't really matter, just the substance of the words. And I think it goes in turns where the AI gets to ask a question of the other three players, air quotes, and you go in a circle until everyone's gone, and then they all have to vote, and there's four

Speaker 2: of those things. Elimination.

Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. It's really fascinating, and it goes to show you just how differently a actual natural language speaker sounds from a natural language LLM. It's so different. The guy tried trying he was pretending to be Genghis Khan. And all of the other players, the LLMs, were giving these very wordy, long, full sentences, grammatically correct answers, and then a person talks, and that is not how human beings speak. And they pretty much immediately call them out. I think one of them got it wrong, but the other two two called them.

Speaker 2: You have to find that send it over to me. I'd be intrigued to watch that.

Speaker 1: I'll send it over to you. Yeah.

Speaker 2: I love I love that the Turing test is so easy to pass now that they've created a new test.

Speaker 1: Reverse the

Speaker 2: Turing test. The AIs that you are a not a human.

Speaker 1: Totally. Yeah. It's pretty good. I think we're at

Speaker 2: Hour twenty.

Speaker 1: I think an hour twenty. I think we can call it. Call

Speaker 2: it. Like, we've rambled enough. We've rambled. You've heard our sales pitch for our new TV show.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Exactly. It was good fun, brought to you as always by Push Security. Thank you for hanging out to the end if anyone is still here.

Speaker 2: If Let us know in the comments, feedback, DMs, and, emails what you thought of this rambling episode. We hope it hope it satisfied some curiosity.

Speaker 1: It's nice to just be able to hop on a mic and have a conversation.

Speaker 2: Mhmm. Mhmm. K. Take care, everybody.