The SIM Farm

Speaker 1: Christmas day, two years ago, Boston police get a phone call. The call painted a very grizzly and, spoiler so we can all exhale, fictional scene. According to the caller, a man had shot a woman at a home in a neighborhood called Roslindale. There were still victims on-site who'd been tied up and were being held hostage by the man. The call gets routed to 911. The Boston Police Department and Emergency Medical rip out to the scene. It is only once they arrive that they determine it was a hoax. The home they arrived at was the then and current mayor of Boston, Michelle Wu. And it's here, at the swatting attack at the mayor's house, that responders start to piece together a pattern based on reports coming out of other cities across the country. At the same time as this call, one of the few where responders actually went out, a slew of similar calls were happening. In Rome, Georgia, a man phoned a Georgia suicide hotline from out of state, said he'd shot someone and planned to hurt himself next. The call was routed to Rome police where they flagged that this was the eighth such horrific scene allegedly taking place at this one address. If they had responded to any of those, they would have found themselves at the home of US Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene. In Cayuga County, New York, cops get a call about a made up shooting at a rural home. They figured out before they went out there that that was the home of Representative Brandon Williams. All at once, Christmas Day, a swatting hoax spree. Special Counsel Jack Smith, US Senator Rick Scott, a unnamed impress but referenced in DOJ filings, former US President. This swatting spree targeting all of these high profile political figures unfolding across The States, all on Christmas day, itself just one day, in a much longer conspiracy that would go on to hit more than a 100 high profile people and institutions. So, what happened here and why are we talking about it now? At the heart of this is a piece of technology called a SIM farm. And last week, the US Secret Service revealed that it had dismantled a massive SIM farm network in the New York area. More than 300 servers and over a 100,000 SIM cards networked into infrastructure that they say was exploited in those same swatting calls on Christmas Day. The calls led them to bust the farm. And when agents started tracing who was actually behind those Christmas Day calls, the cast of characters was much smaller and stranger than I might have expected. A teenage swatter in The US and two men in Eastern Europe now both extradited and indicted. Behind a conspiracy, the prosecutors say touched over a 100 different targets from mayors to senators to judges to journalists. So Scott, so so happy to have you back. We're gonna start here. With that takedown and the conspiracy that turned a piece of cybercrime infrastructure into this national security story. Here on Hacked. Scott, I'm back from Mexico. You're back from Mexico. How are you feeling?

Speaker 2: I'm feeling a lot better than I was last week.

Speaker 1: Hell yeah, dude.

Speaker 2: I'm still still on the mend.

Speaker 1: I

Speaker 2: got a little Hell yeah, dude. I'm still still on the mend. Got a little respiratory infection in Mexico. No problem. I got picked it up, got got dunked pretty hard surfing one time. Got kind of plowed under. It was held under for twenty five, thirty seconds. And it kind of filled all of the sinus cavities and respiratory cavities with a little saltwater. It didn't go in my lungs, thankfully. Yeah. And then I think it just a little bit of Mexican based saltwater. Sure. Visuals became a little bit of a respiratory tract infection. So been fighting it off. I've been sleeping a lot, taking a lot of cough syrup, some antibiotics and just recovering. So feeling better now.

Speaker 1: Doctor. Good.

Speaker 2: Thanks for asking.

Speaker 1: Doctor. Are you rolling on coughs, on that sizzurp right now?

Speaker 2: No. Today, I'm actually off. It's been giving me truthfully, maybe TMI, but giving me a little bit of heartburn. I don't don't like heartburn, but

Speaker 1: like They're gonna say a wicked high. It's been giving you just a wicked, wicked high.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Just all the DM coughs are just drinking it by the by the gallon. Just getting Yeah. Sure. Put it back. Cleaned. But the, no. No. Feeling feeling better. Feeling good. Good. Recovering. Canadian Thanksgiving is almost here, so I'm gonna get a little break. What about you? How's things to do? Things are good.

Speaker 1: You were you were missed in the last episode. A lot of the comments sent their love. I don't know if you saw them. I just wanna go back twenty five to thirty seconds under the water. Is that normal in surfing? I am not a surfer. That sounds intense.

Speaker 2: It is intense. You kinda have to like, when you're held under that long, you have to you start to really think about it, and you have to start convincing yourself. Because, like, we all know that we can hold our breath way longer than we feel like we can because You get that, like, adrenal response to, like, breathe. Mhmm. So you have to sit there and, like, when you're being rolled and washing machine under the waves for that long, you kind of have to have this, like, thought process with yourself being, like, you're not actually in trouble.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Just relax. Sure. You'll get up to the air at some point. There's some right here. Gotcha. Like it's only been ten seconds. I know it feels like it's been ten minutes, but like just calm down. Don't breathe. You'll get air soon enough. And it's like, it's when you're held under for that long, you get to have like a whole cognitive process with it, like thinking about it and talking to yourself about what's going on. Because normally it's like a few seconds, you just get rolled and then you pop up. But I got just clipped at the right tam. A rogue wave came and I was paddling back to get behind it. And it just as I duck dove through the face of the wave, the wave broke on me and just took me through.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: So Gnarly. Gnarly. Gnarly. And residual respiratory tract infections are the payment for such a mistake. For shredding. For for being shredded. For being shredded.

Speaker 1: Nasty. Yeah. Nothing that eventful in my world. Just a bunch of hikes while the season is still happening. Mhmm. A lot of time while that while doing that to be able to reflect on why it is I'm doing that. Yeah. But I do like it.

Speaker 2: I spent three hours wondering why I'm walking up this mountain.

Speaker 1: Yeah. With a big backpack on with tents in it and stuff. Like, we're doing like the the proper Back

Speaker 2: country camping.

Speaker 1: Back country camping. And there's like especially at the beginning of those trails, you feel like a real wiener because you've got like hiking pull because you know you're going out hours further, But then there's like a family with like a grandmother and a small child with an iPad. And you're like, I feel like a goober right now.

Speaker 2: And in

Speaker 1: about an hour, none of these people will be here. It will I will have earned this much kit. But I feel pretty silly being this gawped out when there's, like, someone wearing high heels just up ahead.

Speaker 2: Well, you do live in the gorp capital of the world, maybe.

Speaker 1: You see it at weddings. It's just like you cannot wear that puffer vest all of the time. Like, you don't gotta you're not always going for a hike. You're at a at a cafe. Like, stop it.

Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. Yes. It's good to see. How was Mexico City, though? Good?

Speaker 1: I really liked it. Yeah. It's interesting, like, that you got dinged up in Mexico. I arrived a day after the rest of my friends who were there, and they were like, two of them were already dinged up by, like like, stomach wise and just different stuff. Mhmm. I think I watched one by one, and it's just funny that it I then got back and that you were out of commission from having been there. I was like, one by one, everyone in our group, I think aside from me and one other guy, got just like it was like a serial killer movie, like a slasher flick where there's just like and now one goes down, and now one goes down, and now one goes down, until just one of us was standing up right up until someone got literally food poisoning the night we were going to the airport to fly home. And I had to had to ensure that it's not it's, you know, prepare yourself,

Speaker 2: prepare yourself.

Speaker 1: That being said, probably my favorite city in North America. It's great. It's so fun. It's really good.

Speaker 2: I haven't been. I've heard so many good things about it.

Speaker 1: Oh, it's awesome.

Speaker 2: Here the food's amazing even though your recollection of all the food poisonings and stomach issues.

Speaker 1: It's sensitive British dispositions. Not all of them, but some of them. I shouldn't I shouldn't ask disbursements. I don't know where that came from. But yeah. It came

Speaker 2: from your subconscious, your very biased subconscious.

Speaker 1: It came from my literal recent experiences where it came from. Just knocked them out. But they they all had a great time too. The food's great. Architecture's incredible. Yeah. That's just like a good vibe. Just a really cool city. Goes on forever. If you don't like where you are, just keep going and you will find a whole another

Speaker 2: city,

Speaker 1: essentially. Yeah.

Speaker 2: It's like Tokyo.

Speaker 1: It's like Tokyo. It's a mega city. It's really cool.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I gotta do it. I gotta do it. It's on the list. It's on the list.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2: So should we do anything else we wanna talk about? Thank the patrons. Thank you so much, patrons.

Speaker 1: Thank you all so much as always. Yeah. Really appreciate it.

Speaker 2: We should probably make a hotline hacked one of these days, so maybe we should pump hotlinehack.com. Yeah. Send us your strange tales.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. There's some good stuff in there. I I cracked it over for the first time. We we were we were running it a little hot, and so you just, like, some stuff will come in and we would immediately post. I just wanted to let it kinda percolate for a little while, and it's like, it's been percolating. So, yeah, get your message in. We'll we'll jump back into that soon. I got some fun interviews scheduled coming up soon as well. Get more of those episodes out to you. Just, yeah. But I think for now, some talk about SimFarm.

Speaker 2: Starting with Sim Farms.

Speaker 1: Talk about a SimFarm.

Speaker 2: And it's not like the farming video games. This is not a sim farm. What's what's the name of the farm? Stardew Valley?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Stardew Valley.

Speaker 1: I'll think of Stardew Valley later. Which I have some friends that are, like, ride or die, Stardew Valley people.

Speaker 2: Oh my god.

Speaker 1: And SimFarm would be kind of awesome. Like, you're building it in, like, an abandoned floor of an apartment building in Downtown Manhattan. It's just racks of server farms. You gotta get clients that wanna do spam SMS messages and robocalls. Honestly, not bad. A SIM farm for anyone.

Speaker 2: AI to knock it out at

Speaker 1: the beginning. Yeah. Anyone who doesn't know, a SIM farm is this kind of type of setup that centralizes and automates the use of a giant number of physical SIM cards so that one operator can control thousands, if not more, phone numbers all at once. If you're trying to get it in your head, picture like a rack room full of SIM cards plugged in plugged into devices that are in turn controlled by servers acting like this giant parallel set of mobile phones.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw this story when it broke. And, some of the photography is hilarious. It's just literally like these custom rack like, 1U rack boxes that have phone antennas sticking out of them. And it's just, like, this is 25 cell phones. There's, like, just multiple 1U racks full of them. And it's, like, oh, my god. Like, it's it's you have to know you're doing something bad. And you're, like, with setting up something like that. There is,

Speaker 1: from what I can tell, no. Someone correct me, but I can't see or think of any normal use for this technology. Maybe there's some kind of, like, normalized use in terms of, like, where's the line between spam SMS and say, like, political outreach via text messages. But in the vast majority of the case, that is done by real volunteers who are using their phone numbers through a system. This is the use of, like this is largely used for account fraud, spam SMS, robocalls, ad fraud, phishing campaigns. It's useful. And as we will discuss, it has a role to play in swatting campaigns as well. The primary components are pretty straightforward. You got a ton of SIM cards, the actual mobile subscriber identities, the phone numbers themselves. You've got SIM boxes, which are just hardware that can hold hundreds or thousands of those cards and connect them into the network. You've got a server that's controlling all of it. And then you've got the software layer on top, connection layers, proxies, automation, all that stuff that lets the person control all of these SIM cards. I'm not explaining how to build one, but how one at a very high level does build one is like it's pretty intuitive. You got to go buy a ton of SIM cards, typically from multiple carriers with software to rotate between them to avoid detection. You got to network them, you got to do that rotation, because otherwise these things do get taken down, like telecom providers know

Speaker 2: about this. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yep. And then typically just trying to mask your behavior. So that's a sim farm picture that server farm Scott just kind of described with all of the antennas sticking out of it and someone controlling all of it from behind some kind of a terminal. So what happened here? The small little group of people, a teenage US swatter and two European co conspirators, orchestrated this years long campaign of hoax emergency calls and bomb threats that targeted about a 100 vic like, high profile victims around The United States, congresspeople, mayors, judges, journalists, a former US president, who are our characters here. Two big ones you gotta know are the American, a guy named Alan w Fillion, aka Tor SWAT. He was this prolific caller and orchestrator of hundreds of these calls who was partnered up with a two other guys, but one primary one, guy named Thomas Sabo, aka Plank, Jonas Seifer. This guy in Romania who was identified by prosecutors as the kind of leader and organizer of this years long conspiracy that coordinated all of these swatting and bomb threats against all these high profile targets. There was another guy in the menya one second. Radovanovic. I practice saying it. So I wanted to

Speaker 2: say thank you.

Speaker 1: Thank you. Guy in Serbia who was also co charged. So we have these two different you have these two guys in Eastern Europe, and you've got this teenage swatter guy. Like, how did all of this come together? Feel like the

Speaker 2: there's the infrastructure side, and then there's the usage side. And the teenager seems like he's got a use for it. And the infrastructure side, I would assume these people set these things up and then sub them out, contract them out to people. That would be my guess. Is is with swatting culture in The States and swatting streamers and like any kind of live personalities. I feel like they they're always looking for a way to do it. And these other people are looking for to set up infrastructure to sell to the highest bidder. Totally.

Speaker 1: What's interesting about this is Sabo and Radana Vanovic

Speaker 2: Well done.

Speaker 1: Ran this network that organized and directed the swatting and bomb threats that recruited individuals and operators inside of The States to do the actual calling English language speakers based out of The United States, folks like Fillion. Neither of those groups were the ones that set up this network of SIM farms littered across New York. The sim farms got busted because law enforcement found out about it when they tried to take down the swatting campaign. Interesting. Basically, this giant swarm of swatting, like, events on Christmas day got law enforcement looking into it. They said, what is the tech that is being used? Because we have these calls coming from all over the place, but a lot of it's localized in New York. Sure.

Speaker 2: Thatting this one radio tower.

Speaker 1: That brought them into New York where they found the SIM farm that Sabo and Radovanovic were themselves users of. So they inadvertently got the SIM farm taken down, but they weren't the creators of the SIM farm.

Speaker 2: K. I got a question for you.

Speaker 1: How mad were those SIM farm operators? Very, I imagine.

Speaker 2: Better. Better than that. Better. You're a landlord. Yeah. You rent a small one bedroom apartment out

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 2: To some Eastern European guy. Yep. There's an emergency in the building, and you have to go into your unit. You go into your unit, and there's server racks full of humming, buzzing, cell phone antenna sticking out everywhere. What's going through your mind? What happens when you walk through that door?

Speaker 1: Eastern European guys standing there smoking a cigarette and be like, it's crypto. It's it's It's Bitcoin. Like, you just kinda shut the door. You're like, oh, I hope that's crypto.

Speaker 2: I hope that's crypto.

Speaker 1: Yeah. No. It's a really good question. I the stuff that wasn't I that I could find in any of the DOJ filings of this was actual specific locations. It is a really interesting question of, like, what spaces were they using? It's similar to stuff we've talked about with, like, underground crypto mining where people didn't know. It's like, what did you think was going on with the power consumption in this space? What did they tell you they're doing? They there must have been my theory was that they were commercial spaces, and the people were saying we're operating a tech business when what they were actually doing were operating SIM farms that they were licensing out to criminal operations.

Speaker 2: That's if I had to guess. If you had to guess. If I had to guess that I would think that they probably had smaller farms set up in residential places.

Speaker 1: Interesting.

Speaker 2: Do they make them more discreet?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure. I'm just a a little underground. I'm a little crypto miner, and that's why I have these server farms here. Yeah. It could be a mule type thing too, where it's just like, hey, let us Totally. Give you $1,500 a month to put this thing in a closet. Totally. That's interesting. Oh, yeah. I'm coming around to that idea.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, tenants have way more, you know, laws and protections than commercial tenants do, like residential tenants.

Speaker 1: Sure. You can't kick me out just because

Speaker 2: you're running a spam SIM farm out

Speaker 1: of my second bedroom closet.

Speaker 2: You can't can't barge into my unit. There's more protections, things like that. Where commercial, I think there's way less of that. So I I if if I had to guess, if I was to do it, if we were theoretically setting up a sim farm, I'd probably go smaller farms across multiple residential units than one big commercial space.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Right. It's much more conspicuous to run the, like, Bed Bath and Beyond of sim farm and phone crime versus just being

Speaker 2: like Exactly.

Speaker 1: I just need a guy to put this rack mount thing inside of some corner of their house.

Speaker 2: Little five u rack, shove it in your, like, bedroom closet

Speaker 1: Totally.

Speaker 2: Close the door.

Speaker 1: We use it for twelve hours a day. When we're not, you can mine crypto with it. Like, you do whatever you you do whatever you want with this. Yeah. So, according to the kind of prosecution's case, all this documentation is now public. So we have a pretty good sense of what, law enforcement thinks happened here, which is the division of labor was kind of intuitively you would have actors, some folks like Philly in making the calls and executing the hoaxes themselves, and And you have others like Sabo and Bradovanovic organizing the targets, creating scripts, arranging calls and resources, getting access to those SIM farms in New York, access to that telecom infrastructure. This is like at the heart of this is kind of how do you scale something like this? Step one, they pick the targets. We'll talk more about how they pick them later. Step two, Sabon Radovanovic would write these scripts, these premises for the operators and the states to execute on. They would use these SIM farms to make sure that the calls originated from inside the states. They use this combination of human callers and this technical infrastructure that they had access to, got throwaway numbers, proxies, basically just to avoid being traced. A single person dialing can only do so many calls if you want to scale something like this, scale this kind of harassment. And to sustain this campaign over months and months and months, you need a ton of different originating numbers, a ton of different SIM cards, a ton of different networks to access. And that was why they had to work with this series of SIM farms versus something they might have been able to get somewhere else.

Speaker 2: Sure. And they they needed big infrastructure.

Speaker 1: You need a lot of infrastructure to do something like this. And the why of all this is still very opaque.

Speaker 2: Well, when you were reading the intro story, all I was seeing in my mind was, like, the opening to a Hollywood movie.

Speaker 1: Very. Yeah.

Speaker 2: It's just like Christmas day and, like, a SWAT team breaking down a door, and it's, like, the mayor of Boston. And then it, like, cuts to another scene, and there's a SWAT team, like, assembling at a house, and it's the governor of

Speaker 1: somewhere else. Totally.

Speaker 2: And then it's like it's just the chaos that they created allows some other it's like a misdirect for some other

Speaker 1: large criminal thing. Yeah. Sure.

Speaker 2: Well, that's the weird

Speaker 1: thing about it is this doesn't really there there wasn't the the why of it never really gets much more satisfactory satisfying than the why that an individual would do a swatting attack, which seems to be I I don't wanna psychologize them, but it's, like, it's kind of ego at a certain point. It's notoriety. It's all of those psychological things. There isn't really, like, a profitability component to all

Speaker 2: of this.

Speaker 1: So much of what we talk about is, like, at the end, there's a big pile of cash, and it's like, I keep look there's no I don't see the pile of cash for anyone other than the sim farm operator.

Speaker 2: I feel like swatter culture again, again, I'm by by no means an expert in it, but, like, I've seen seen a lot of, like, streamers get swatted, major personalities, and it's like seems like it's a bit of entertainment. Yep. Like, we've talked about it on the show before where they had hacked the doorbell cameras and stuff, and there was, like, people watching the swats happen. Yeah. I feel like it's like a like a power power issue. Like, they're trying to, you know, influence power, take power, as well as, like, this little bit of entertainment that they get, this, like, dopamine hit of, like, watching their plan come to fruition. Totally. And it's like, yeah. It's very, very strange. Very So strange thing.

Speaker 1: They've scaled something very strange here.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: So this December 2023 spree targets senators, representatives, mayors, law and gets all this law enforcement attention. And those calls matter beyond just being a good way to start the story because so many of those calls appearing at the same week telegraphed that there was something coordinated happening here rather than just isolated prank calls. That sense of, oh, this is coordinated prompted the attention that eventually broadened the investigation to capture the SIM farm. So they they they find this 300 SIM server, 100,000 SIM card network around New York. Secret Service say that this infrastructure was used to set up tens of millions of texts per minute license to totally unrelated criminal enterprises, but law enforcement, as we mentioned, was brought to this because of this SIM swatting, this swatting hoax, event on Christmas. The thing I found interesting here is, like so Fillion and Sabo and co met up and worked together on the scheme, which used the sim farms and led law enforce enforcement to the farms. But as I said, they didn't set any of this up. And I'm I just I really wanna understand who did. There's no publicly available information in the charges as to who they think set that up. And it is unclear if those folks have been arrested or if they just found the the scheme.

Speaker 2: It is it is interesting. Like, the the the to jump back to talking about, like, shutting these things down, like, I get tons of text message spam. Yeah. Some of it some of it's, like, piggery. Some of it's like political, like, packs and stuff, like, trying to influence you. Mhmm. And some of it's just straight up, like, you know, spam. And it's like there's no real easy way, at least in Canada, to report that stuff. So I'm sure it goes on and on and on without ever really being shut down. So so these sim farms probably make a ton of money licensing out this capacity to these operations that are using it for stuff that's not gonna get investigated by the FBI.

Speaker 1: Totally.

Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, they license a bit of that capacity out to some group that is doing it to do something that will get investigated with the by the FBI. And then boom, their entire thing comes falling down.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Providing the criminal infrastructure for the smaller crimes that never get investigated seems smart until you realize you don't really know what you're licensing the tech out to and it turns out someone being like, what if I SWAT attacked all of the senators? And it's like, well, now you got a lot of heat. Totally. You thought you were you were find it, like, empowering the equivalent of pickpocketing on the Internet, and it turned out you were empowering the equivalent of, like, something much more serious.

Speaker 2: Totally.

Speaker 1: Alan Fillion, plead guilty on 11/13/2024. Multiple counts of making hundreds of swatting calls. He was sentenced to forty eight months in prison. Sabo and Radovanovic were indicted, 08/28/2024, DOJ unsealed indictment charging the two of them with conspiracy threats transmitting false information. They were both extradited from their respective countries to The United States. Actually, Radovanovic proceedings remained pending in a bit, but, I just don't want to say they both were. Sabo was extradited from Romania, plead guilty to conspiracy. So I think that that's most of the story. The more I was just more time I spent on this one, I was really and we talked about this a little bit, but the, like, the why of all of it. Mhmm. We we talked about the side of sort of psychological reasoning, but a thing I found fascinating, and I was noticing this as I was reading the list of victims. It was a notable line from the indictment quoted by reporters. Sabo allegedly instructed co conspirators to pick targets from both sides of the political aisle, saying, quote, we are not on any side. Kind of like this attempt to appear nonpartisan so you would get no political heat from one side or the other while still doing something that targeted some of the most high profile people in in the country. It's like, I don't know what you thought you were avoiding by not picking one side of the political aisle from the other, but you did not avoid it, sir.

Speaker 2: I guess it just didn't wanna get painted with, like, a tribal brush. Sure. Yeah. Just like

Speaker 1: that. This is political. It's like, no.

Speaker 2: This is

Speaker 1: for the walls.

Speaker 2: Yeah. We're going after power, not we we don't have an agenda in a political realm.

Speaker 1: Yeah. They were going after I mean, power in a set they went after a lot of journalists too, which were woven into that where it's like it seemed like they wanted to go after high profile people.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Exactly. Power I was using power

Speaker 1: as a guy. Broadly. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Broadly is like a it's like a we're going after senators. We're going after people that have power and authority.

Speaker 1: Influential people, people with a reputation. And in the vast majority of cases, law enforcement, I think, has figured out that this is an issue and that they must maintain databases of, like, here's the 20 people in our town or whatever it is, that if a call is gonna come in, check that that address isn't on this list before you send everybody out. The Michelle Wu Boston mayor anecdote was one of the few ones where law enforcement actually went out, which is why we started there. So, yeah, it's a fascinating it's fascinating to watch the evolution of this from, like, a a discreet thing that would happen to something that is apparently people are attempting to scale.

Speaker 2: It's I I don't know. Like, slaughter culture to me, I feel like it kinda like, maybe I'm gonna knock on wood here, but I feel like I don't hear about it as much anymore.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Maybe police services and and have gotten better about responding to it. I

Speaker 1: think that's it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Because because it there was a period there, like, kinda late end COVID 2022, 2023 when it was just game on. Like, every day, it seemed like some high profile streamer was getting slotted live on stream. Yeah. People of influence. So, yeah, I'm I'm hoping we're done with that.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Me too. It's a very it's like a bad use of time and resources, and it's, like, really

Speaker 2: Wasted utility, you know.

Speaker 1: Wasted utility, as you say. This is dangerous. It's like you're like, people have gotten hurt in those situations because you have a you have a paramilitary force showing up inside of a, like, residential neighborhood. It's like it's not good.

Speaker 2: No. No. And especially they're showing up under the guise that something is very wrong, that there are armed people trying hurting people actively Yep. And they are ready to respond with force. And then all of a sudden, they're standing in someone's bedroom who's sitting in front of a bunch of computer screens with a camera in front of them.

Speaker 1: To say. Yeah. It's the, like, it's it happened to I forgot how much it was, targeted at streamers

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: Who wear headphones. Like, I know that seems like a small detail, but it's like there's someone banging on the door and you're live streaming and you have, like, all the UI sounds blasting in your ear. And then suddenly there's, like Yeah. Six people. The cast of Tenet behind you with, like, all of the rifles and stuff, like, just ready to go. And you're like, that's see, it's why people got hurt. Yeah. Yeah. Bad vibes. Bad vibes. Don't do it. Don't build a SIM farm in a closet in New York.

Speaker 2: It's not good. And if you do, don't license it out to people who are gonna use it for things worse than petty ad fraud.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Totally. Like, of all of the things you could license this out to.

Speaker 2: Totally.

Speaker 1: Where do we go next? Yeah. Can we go ad break?

Speaker 2: Let's go ad break. Let's take a

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Speaker 1: And we're back.

Speaker 2: Before we hit record, Jordan and I were just catching up because we haven't had a lot of time the last couple weeks to catch up. We're talking about the stock market Yeah. And what seems to be going on in the stock market. Jordan and I were talking about whether there might be a little bit of an AI bubble showing up, whether the market's a little frothy, seems we're hitting new all time highs every couple days.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a

Speaker 2: cybersecurity related conversation, but it's an AI tech related. So

Speaker 1: And, and this is so when people say this is not financial advice, it's typically the last thing that they say before they give you financial advice. And truly from the bottom of my heart Yeah.

Speaker 2: This is not financial advice.

Speaker 1: This is really not financial advice. I don't like that kind of content. That's not what we're doing here. But it seems weird. Where where's your head on and ad on this, man? Because I have I have takes.

Speaker 2: I think I got a a few heads on this one because it's like, I personally think AI is going to be profound. K. So I don't think it's a like, but here's the thing is, like, the .com boom in the nineties, the Internet turned out to be quite profound. Sure. But there was still a bubble, and that bubble did burst. Yep. So so there are some parallels there, except for the the difference is that a lot of the .com corporations had zero, like, zero revenues. Like, they didn't make any money. They were just spending money. It was all future potential. Where now we've got a bunch of players like Nvidia who's making real money. Like, Nvidia is based like, they they have a a huge long term valuation, but also their short term and, like, their their their EBITDA and like their earnings is quite high. Like they're selling a lot of hardware. AMD of which I am a shareholder, I just had a massive week because it turns out that OpenAI signed a monster deal with them. So

Speaker 1: With NVIDIA?

Speaker 2: With AMD. But then, so here's the thing that I'm worried about. Here's my take is it seems that OpenAI I don't wanna say that they're manipulating the market, but every single day, there's a new story about how AMD is partnering with somebody, and then that company's share goes up 20%.

Speaker 1: Oh, interesting.

Speaker 2: So Figma, who kind of came out IPO'd, went way up to, like, a 100 and some bucks a share then crashed to, like, 50. OpenAI came out the other day and was like, we're gonna be integrating into Figma. Figma share price responded by going up 20% or something, a rough, rough approximation. And so just this week alone, it's like OpenAI is signing deals with companies and announcing them, and it's that alone is enough to move these companies' share values huge. I've heard that they've also taken options. I don't know the truth of this. I should actually just Google this right now before I say it, but I've heard that AMD has taken or sorry. OpenAI has purchased options in AMD. So they could end up owning upwards of 10% of AMD if the stock price hits the targets over the next few periods. So essentially, they're gonna own a big chunk of AMD if their relationship drives the value of AMD up high enough. So it's like a it's it's it's very strange what's going on. AMD knows that they hold a bunch of power in the investment community, and it seems like they're leveraging that power to kind of make equity plays into other companies. So I don't know if they did the same thing with Figma, where they took the ability to own part of Figma, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Speaker 1: The thing that maybe not stresses me out is the wrong word, but the thing that's odd to me. So last week, OpenAI released, I don't know what they're called. I think it's just called Sora, which is previously their video generation. Yeah, it was just the name for their video generation platform. And they rolled it out as a invite only sort of vertical scrolling video style app. That isn't sure isn't for me from the look of it. I don't love the way that those, like, sort of just you look at the app and it blasts content at you without you having to choose style vertical video apps work. But, hey, do you. This is that, but entirely AI generated. And without at all at all digging into the ethics of that and the copyright of all of that and the is it good for you of all that? There's just the fact that an app like that's monetized. It's like that monetization model is very well established. It's advertising. You make an app like that, you make so that you can put ads into it, and you can imagine how that would be monetized. With this, where you have people using the app to generate the content, and then you have people paying to generate ads inside of it, and it's just this big prompt slop funnel. And the thing I'll say is that OpenAI's value is not pegged to maybe we'll sell some ads. It's pegged to maybe we'll replace 40% of jobs. So if where they're spending their time is can we make money off ads, that makes all of it look really house of cards y to me. Because I'm like, I thought you were working on making God, and you're making AI vertical video and maybe we can put ads into it. I don't I'm not saying that's where they're spending all of their time, but that to me is like, does anyone else see a red flag here? Because that feels really red flag y when I think about it like that. Yeah.

Speaker 2: I think I feel I feel I feel like the launch of Sora. Like I saw it all over the timeline, mostly in like Stephen Hawking X Games clips for some reason, like people were generating X Games. Anyway, I don't know how they ended up all over my timeline, but they did. And I don't know. Me neither. It's very, very strange. OpenAI also relaunched like, our release and launched an agent builder. K. So now they're using AI to build agents that use AI. K. So so you don't even need to code them anymore. Like, you don't need to use any of the agentic frameworks. You can actually just talk to OpenAI, and it will build you an agentic agent. So going to be very interesting to see how that goes. Like they are as a private entity, it is very fascinating what they're up to And it's not uncommon for them to take ownership. Like for some companies take ownership stakes and other companies, like it's not unreasonable. But to have warrants and options to take a big chunk of AMD as they announce that they will be partnering with AMD, utilizing their chipsets for their data centers is a crazy backend way to pay for your investment. Like we need to buy $10,000,000,000 in chips from you. So we're going to buy options to buy 10% of your company because when we buy $10,000,000,000 in chips in you, the value of your company is going to go up enough that our options pay for the investment in the chips that we've made. It's it's like a crazy How is that financial game.

Speaker 1: How is that not trading on it on privileged information?

Speaker 2: Don't know.

Speaker 1: Okay. Cool. Because I'm like, that's not you're not supposed to do. I would get in trouble if I did something that I can't tell how it's different from that.

Speaker 2: Yes. Like It's like I'm about to sign a monster deal with you, but I'm not gonna sign it until you sign a deal that allows me to buy a chunk of you in the future. Price. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Cool.

Speaker 1: And then all of, like, NVIDIA like, I'm not saying NVIDIA isn't worth a ton of money, but all of those chip companies are their valuations are in part pegged to the valuations of of the generative side of things. Like, NVIDIA is worth more than, like, a big chunk of the pharmaceutical industry at this point, and its value is in some part pegged to the generative output of these companies. And I'm like, it's different than the .com bubble, but it would be

Speaker 2: be bad. NVIDIA's worth 4,700,000,000,000. K. So, like That's

Speaker 1: a large number.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, what's Amazon kicking that today? Two and a half. So it's two it's two in two Amazons.

Speaker 1: Two Amazons.

Speaker 2: Two Amazons.

Speaker 1: How big is the pharmaceutical industry?

Speaker 2: As per my AI, the global pharmaceutical industry commands a staggering enterprise value estimated to range from 4 to $5,000,000,000,000 So if NVIDIA is worth 4,700,000,000,000, that would make it essentially a single industry the size of the entire global pharmaceutical industry. Yeah. Yeah. That's big global. I don't know. I don't know, Jeremy.

Speaker 1: I didn't say it was gonna pop. I just said it's a big bubble.

Speaker 2: It's a it's a big valuation. It's a big valuation. So it's a true story. The reason that I own an AMD is that I miss the NVIDIA bus. The NVIDIA bus came and went. I was on it for a little bit, made some money, got out, didn't know if it was going to last. And AMD is the only people who have shown that they have the potential to compete with NVIDIA at that global data center scale.

Speaker 1: You're not bullish on Intel?

Speaker 2: Well, much more bullish than Intel seeing as Yeah. Trump is taxing NVIDIA to give it to Intel. But but, I wish I'd gotten onto the Intel train when it was like $18 now that it's like 40. Anyway, so the Nvidia what was I saying? I got an AMD because if if if it even has a fallout of 15 or 20% of the expectation that NVIDIA's got on it, then it'll double or triple in value. So I was like, you know what, I'm just going to jump on AMD and hope that it rides the tail of NVIDIA as its only real competitor that's shown up so far.

Speaker 1: Sure. The Pepsi to their worth more than the pharmaceutical industry Coke.

Speaker 2: Industry Coke. Exactly.

Speaker 1: Interesting. Okay, let's leave the stock market. It makes me it makes me feel bad.

Speaker 2: No financial Was given. Advice there.

Speaker 1: I mean, still in kind of the AI world. Did you follow this Tilly Norwood story?

Speaker 2: Oh, of course. Yeah. I didn't follow it, but it it definitely should it showed up in my spaces. Why don't you tell everybody who Tilly Norwood is first?

Speaker 1: I reject the structure of that sentence. So two weeks ago, at Zurich's film festival, Aline van der Velden, founder and CEO of air production company Particle six, and this sort of, air quotes talent studio spin off, Sequoia, revealed that air quotes revealed that talent agents had expressed interest in representing Tilly Norwood, a AI generated actress. Norwood is Sequoia's first lifelike digital avatar. It's kind of envisioned by van der Velde as the quote that got so much press coverage. The press coverage of this kind of is the story. The quote is the next Scarlett Johansson or Natalie Portman. Her most visible role so far is a AI animated short called AI commissioner, a video that particle six put out. It's poking fun at the TV production process.

Speaker 2: It's, we're we're You gotta get through it. You gotta get through it. You gotta talk about AI people.

Speaker 1: It's not, though. It's not an AI people. So, basically, she puts out this press they put out this press release saying this is the new type of actor, and all these talent agents are talking to us, and they all wanna sign a thing called Tilly Norwood.

Speaker 2: A thing.

Speaker 1: And she's gonna be in movies, and you're gonna watch her, and she's gonna be a star like Scarlett Johansson. I watched AI Commissioner. I can go ahead and say that I did not like it, and I did not think it was very good in my personal subjective opinion. I thought it was very, very bad. And I think that Tilly Norwood had one sentence that it said in it, and best of luck to him. The response from the film industry, from actors, from other talent agents was resoundingly negative, for the obvious reasons. Where do we begin with this?

Speaker 2: I feel I feel like we're a throwback to last month when we talked about AI music.

Speaker 1: Sound down.

Speaker 2: Which we got roast which I got roasted on a bit in the comments. A lot of Swifties out there quick to point out that Taylor writes all of her own music to which I will contrast, when you see Max Martin on her songwriting credits, I just want you to go to Wikipedia and look up who Max Martin is. K. K. So we got we got we got Timbaland starting an AI music agency group, ANR agency group. We've got Tilly Norwood, the AI actress, AI actress. That's what that's that's the pronoun I will use AI actress. Sure. The Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I I wanted I wanted dig into this one a little bit. Like, as we have anyone who listens to this show knows, like, I don't think I am digging my like, sticking my head in the dirt on AI, Generally speaking, I'm very aware of the what can be done with it. I'm especially in terms of, like, film and media production, it's like it certainly has a role. It already is featured in moments in special effects. It has a role to play in VFX. It is a useful technology in the film production pipeline. Having established that I am not old man shakes fist at cloud about this technology, this is the dumbest shit I've ever seen in my life. If you are a talent agent who signs what they are calling Tilly Norwood, I have a duffle bag full of magic beans to sell you. Like, there there at the heart of this is, like, a category confusion of, like, is Bart Simpson a character or an actor that you can cast in things?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I'd say I'd say I'd say they're both. I wouldn't. Because Bart Simpson has a human that voices him. That they're an actor. Yes. Exactly. So they're both. It is both a character that you can cast in things and an actor because you need both of them to make Bart.

Speaker 1: Right. But it is not an actor. Like, like Bart Simpson

Speaker 2: I I I know what you're trying to say, but I'm I'm trying to say the opposite where it's like, what we consider to be Bart Simpson is actually a performance by an actor Yeah. And a performance by animators and illustrators.

Speaker 1: Sure. There are animators and there's an actor, but Bart Simpson's a character. And Nancy car it is very specifically important because people are saying Tilly Norwood's an actor. And I'm saying Bart Simpson Goku Goku's a character.

Speaker 2: Sure.

Speaker 1: Bart Simpson is a character. Nancy Cartwright is a wonderful performer and actor, the voice of Bart Simpson. Yes. So when you start saying things like we're expecting talent representation to sign Bart's to sign Goku any day now, I'm like, you are at best confused and at worst lying. I I'm like, this to me, the Verge called this an AI psyop where all of the media about this is normalizing this concept. And I'm like, I would go further. It's like, for legal reasons, I will not call this a grift, and it's only for legal reasons that I'm not calling this a grift. Like, it this one there's so many of these things where I'm like, oh, there's actual shades of complexity and ambiguity here of when is it AI? What is an art project? And there's some actual cool AI art projects that are starting to come out we can talk about in a minute. But, like, this one, this has, like, in the early days of NFTs when people are like, you can own a JPEG. And and then now we're like, no. You couldn't. This feels like that where I'm like, just no you no. She isn't. In my in my humble opinion.

Speaker 2: I I I it's complicated. It is complicated. It's definitely that. Because the thing is is is really what we're doing is we're taking, like, I wouldn't call them an actor, but I would call them more of like a a directed asset because there's somebody that's controlling the asset that is Tilly Norwood Mhmm. Who is the conduit and the prompter.

Speaker 1: It's Jared the prompter.

Speaker 2: It's the verb. It's the prompt here.

Speaker 1: I'm with you. It's complicated. I am with you.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So there's somebody that will control and review and evaluate and criticize the performance of the asset, Tilly Norwood, who will then refine the prompts to make it more of what they're expecting. It's it's it's it's still a performance. There's still gonna be a human gatekeeping it. It's just that it's an automated artificial asset.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: Which is very strange and not something that we've typically had in the world. Like this is in the last couple years we're getting it. I will say that like if you watch any kind of streaming platforms, anywhere where there's video advertising, I would say now that we've crossed the 10% threshold where 10% of the video ads that I see, I can quickly spot that they have AI assets in them. And it's not like text It's

Speaker 1: in use.

Speaker 2: It is in use. And it has is in use.

Speaker 1: Whether you like it or not, it has utility in that use case. Yes. Yes. I completely agree. I guess I I I've I've spoken my piece of why I'm not a fan of it. In a practical sense, I would say to anyone considering signing this thing, it's like

Speaker 2: No. Nobody's going to.

Speaker 1: No. And no one should. I like, I genuinely

Speaker 2: a shock and awe thing. So we all do it from the PR, but nobody's no no sincere filmmaker's gonna do it because they know that there's gonna be a massive fallout from it.

Speaker 1: It's also just like a I can't wrap my brain around the aside from the publicity stunt of it all, which you only get to do once. Mhmm.

Speaker 2: No one

Speaker 1: no one's gonna be the second one to do this. And if I want Scarlett Johansson to be in my movie, not AI Scarlett, not a rendering of Scarlett, but I want Scarlett Johansson to be in the movie, like, guess who has to show up on set and whose talent agent then gets a cut? Do you wanna know who gets a cut if I put this exact face envisage into an AI slop thing that I've made no one? You you could you could go make a thing with air quotes Tilly Norwood in it right now. And the response, which could then be like, oh, but if someone owned the intellectual property to a Tilly Norwood, no. You couldn't. It's like, sure. They'll be the first person to enforce copyright in AI image generation. Best of luck to you.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw some of some of the criticism about the Sora launch Yeah. Around that same topic where people were like, four days after Sora launch, now all of a sudden these AI companies are talking about copyright problems because there's, like, people who it's like That's good fun. Oh, no. It's like it's gone full circle.

Speaker 1: Oh, a 100%. The, if you wanna see, like, more inch it's like, another thing that's been getting way less press than the Tilly Norwood and the Velvet Sundown, the Pure just, like, prompt generated stuff is, there's this thing called NeuralViz, which is a product of, I would say, like, a a filmmaker named Josh Wallace Kerrigan, who is using AI essentially as a visual rendering pipeline for a series of characters that he is creating and voicing himself. Like, he is doing a Trey Parker and Matt Stone writing and voicing all their characters and then Mhmm. Animating it dirt cheap with, like, paper cutouts. He's doing that same kind of thing and then rendering the visuals using these tools. Does this address the ethical implications of how those tools were trained? No. Is it creative? An order of magnitude more than any of the stories we have talked about? Yes.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So if you wanna see a world of, like, AI created stuff that isn't just this kind of low effort slop, start there. Like, that the defensible position looks like that to me.

Speaker 2: This is kinda where my mind goes with this stuff. Like, we're just talking about generative AI, but I don't see, like, the Tilly Norwood's this case of, like, I'm gonna replace, like, we're still gonna do this Hollywood's project, the cinematography. We're gonna have sets and circuses and all the rest of the jazz. And then we're just gonna replace the female lead with a green screen stand in that's gonna be replaced with Tilly Norwood. I don't see that ever happening, but I can see the 19 year old Jordan Blumen who's sitting in his bedroom and has come up with this great storyline idea and wants to turn it into a piece of visual content that they wanna put on the internet but they don't have the experience, training, skills to hand illustrated, animated, do all this stuff. But now all of a sudden they have an outlet where they can leverage it to do it. They could score it. They can do all kinds of stuff. And they know the vibe that they want, but they don't have the the training and the knowledge to, like, sit down and score the the the TV show they're making or the YouTube shorts or whatever it's gonna be. Yep. And I see there's like a huge empowerment in the content creation game. Like, that's the way that I see it going. I think that if we can accept that that's where it's going now, we need to also accept that in ten years, it's gonna be at the point where we could sit down and create a full motion picture with it because it's like the that the the speed that it is progressing now compounded over ten more years, we're gonna get to the point where you won't need us like a circus and a set and cinematographers and, you know, grips and gaffers and best boys and blah blah blah. You won't need them all costume departments. You'll be able to sit down in something like Google's creating their little motion picture platform that you can sit down and stitch scenes together and create stuff.

Speaker 1: Edit with

Speaker 2: it and make sure. Edit with it. Yeah. Like you're building an AI woven video editor. And I could see that that product going somewhere in, like, five, ten years when that gets more advanced.

Speaker 1: As a tool, it it will I'm like I said, I look at something in neuroviz, and I don't even need to say will have a place. It's like it has a place in a real creative person's pipeline. And we can talk about the exact, you know, machinations of that, but it has a place in a real creative person's process. I think about, and we've talked about this before, but my other analogy from Bart Simpson to Goku was like, Gollum versus Andy Serkis, where you had a real person delivering a real performance that, like, expressed something about their experience and all the great things that are art. And it was being, filtered through the visage of, like, a three d generated character that cost tens of, not hundreds of millions of dollars to produce.

Speaker 2: And

Speaker 1: and Matt Parker and Trey Stone with their little, like, cut out, you know, paper characters. It's that kind of thing.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Video games, same thing.

Speaker 1: It it's the ability to filter a thing and create something more than the input. That's really interesting to me. And for someone to, you know we all have, like, bat like, there's some weird taste in everyone's mouth about, like, de aging actors. But for Harrison Ford to be able to wear kind of a, like, AI generated deep fake mask of his younger self to play himself forty years prior

Speaker 2: in the studios, like,

Speaker 1: that's a creative I was thinking Indiana Jones, but totally, like, that's a creative choice that real artists can use leveraging these tools. That's something, to my mind, a Tilly Norwood is not.

Speaker 2: Yes. Agreed. Agreed. I I would never make the art. Like, I'm by no means, I think the Tilly Norwood thing is hilarious.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. I I think It's deeply cringey.

Speaker 2: I think if you're looking at AI, I'll say I'll say this. I'll make a bold claim. Yeah. Hit me. If you're if you're looking at using AI to replace human function in a process in the traditional way, then you're not thinking about it hard enough. Well put. Because the process will change to adapt to the AI integration of it. Just looking to be like, oh, we can remove Scarlett Johansson's $20,000,000 movie fee from this and just put in Tilly Norwood is not the way that the world's gonna go. That will not be the outwares.

Speaker 1: It misunderstands why people are drawn to artists and art. I I really do, like, not to get too big with it. But, like, the reason you have paintings and songs and poems and films is to go, the things that happen inside of my head and inside of the story that is my life are happening inside of other people's as well. Yeah. And they put it out there, and I can see it, and I can feel it, and I I feel seen, and I see you. There's something really meaningful about that. And to go, like, or I could type in a prompt, and that's just as good. Right? It's like, oh, I I think you I think you misunderstand. And you might, like the NFT makers, be able to ride a publicity cycle to a bunch of money briefly. I'm not denying that. And a bunch of people will make a lot of money putting out these kinds of press releases and go see, and it won't make it true.

Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. We're all products of our context. And we look for that context and understanding in our forms for sure.

Speaker 1: A 100%.

Speaker 2: So I I just yeah, I think it's gonna be I think it's gonna be interesting. As the society adjusts and adapts to AI, it's gonna be a really entertaining shift. To go back to the stock market a bit and talk about NVIDIA. Like Jensen Wong says that AI is our fourth technological revolution and I don't disagree with them. And it's like you kind of already see it making those impacts across society. Like it's already farther along than I think any of us ever thought it would get And it's still underwhelming to the people who are pushing it forward. So once their expectations start to be met, it's going to be truly boggling for us. Like when you've got Elon Musk and OpenAI, like I don't even know how many groups are pursuing AGI now, but it's gotta be 10 and lots of them have endless money. If one of them reaches that endpoint, society will fundamentally change from that day forward. I don't think we've seen a lot of made like AI has definitely made an impact in our society and in our culture. There's certain industries like software development that it's like grossly affecting is certain certain places where it's having a big influence. But I'd say at the large scale, it's more just facilitating some of our job functions. Like, most people use it now. It's not like a foreign thing. Some companies that have been resistant to it are becoming less resistant to it because they see productivity gains in their staff for it. You know, how many times can you pay $20 a month and see a 30% lift in productivity and somebody that you pay $100,000 a year? It's like that to me just makes economic sense economically viable. Exactly. So, yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see if they get it across the finish line. And by the finish line, I'll say AGI. And if they do, what will happen at that point?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyone's guess.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Like I was listening to an interview the other day between a couple of deans for major like prestigious universities in The United States. It was on Diary of a CEO, I think. No, it wasn't. It was on All In with the Facebook guy. Yeah. And they were talking about how they're weaving AI into the curriculum now because they know it's here to stay. And, you know, what used to be tutoring and special learning and stuff like that, people could just ask AI. AI will explain it to you. If they have questions, they can ask it. Like, it is an educational tool and they can't overlook that. Also the value that they put, they actually made some funny jokes and as the deans of like, you know, these massive institutions, they were laughing about how people don't know how to write anymore and like things like this, which is, you know, will only get worse as we become more dependent on them on the machines. But, yeah, it was just very, very interesting to hear how their take on it is and what like what the educational, the post secondary educational system is looking at it for because they know it's there. They know it exists. They know people are using it and they have to adapt for that because to just ignore it and pretend that it doesn't exist is just not gonna happen, not gonna work.

Speaker 1: It's gonna be a fascinating day if we when we hit that line. If if they ever hit that line, it would be interesting day to be making a tech show.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: And I will say, I'm very, very happy to have you back. Because as much as I can bullshit into a microphone by myself, I can't do this.

Speaker 2: I can bullshit just as actually, I can't bullshit as good as you. You're a great bullshitter.

Speaker 1: Oh, man. Okay. We got sim farms. We got

Speaker 2: We got a forty minute AI rant.

Speaker 1: Forty minute AI rant. I couldn't be happier about it. This has been a fun one. Anything else?

Speaker 2: Nothing we can't save for the next one.

Speaker 1: Hell, yeah. We'll catch you in the next one.

Speaker 2: Thanks for coming by.

Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Take care.