Vegas Gets Hacked + So Does Sony + The Crypto Reality Show

Speaker 1: In Las Vegas, the house always wins. But this past month, the security department did not. That's my opening line. That's that's my way into this story.

Speaker 2: I would actually say that the shareholders also lost quite substantially. Yeah.

Speaker 1: They didn't do so hot either on this one. This chat episode of Hacked, we are talking about the recent twin attacks of two of the biggest casino companies in Las Vegas, what we know so far about the hacks that happened this past month against MGM and Caesars. Scott?

Speaker 2: Me. You. Just very, very recently, Sony had to come forth and say that they have, again, been breached. Not sure if it's related. This hack is still pretty new as of recording, but, definitely, it's something I wanna talk about.

Speaker 1: And I wanna talk about oh, I've got we've got a couple things to talk about, but I would like to talk about what I'm guessing is probably gonna be the new reality TV show, of 2023 that everyone's gonna be talking about, the crypto shark tank killer whales.

Speaker 2: I I've been shopping my pitch for this. Getting ready. Getting ready to go in. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Dear killer whales, I have a project to tell you. Yeah. No. I I I can see it. I have some ideas for this show I wanna

Speaker 2: talk to you about.

Speaker 1: All that and more in this chatty episode I have. How you doing, Scott?

Speaker 2: I'm good. Yeah? I'm good. How are you doing?

Speaker 1: Doing good.

Speaker 2: I'm enjoying the we're in the where I live, we are in the seventy two hours of fall. So it is, cooling, very beautiful, lots of rainbow y leaves, gradients on the trees. So trying to enjoy the last little bits of weather that isn't killing you the second you leave your house. So, yeah. So that's Sure.

Speaker 1: Sure. You're talking about the, you know, the four days, give or take, where stuff is orange before the six months where it's just white out.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Speaker 1: Just white. Yeah. White. I'm happy to announce the seven months of rain set in over this past weekend.

Speaker 2: Yes. That's true. You were into the the slumbers of British depression.

Speaker 1: Oh, dude. I'm in it. I really am. Like, it it hits so abruptly. I went from shorts a week ago to, like, full blown Pacific Coast kind of Rain gear. Jackets and bloodstones. Yeah. You got it.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Nice. So I'm

Speaker 1: I'm just, like, staring at a sunlamp from about six inches away with my eyes held open like the clockwork orange guy, just trying to, like, beam, vitamin d into my skull.

Speaker 2: Well, I think under that rain jacket, something that would look exceptional is one of the new hacked hoodies that are coming very, very soon. Very, very soon. I'm actually just waiting waiting for samples right now. So we've got the merch store set up. The products have been set up. I just ordered a few things to make sure that it's not, you know, bad. And so we're just waiting for the samples, and the the shop will be live very soon. I think we are coming up on a calendar year since we said we were gonna put it up. So goodbye us.

Speaker 1: They told us that no one could get an enamel mug made in less than a year, and they were right. It's simply not possible, but we we finally done it. We've got hats.

Speaker 2: We've got hats of various types. I'm I'm putting a controversial product in the store.

Speaker 1: You got a bucket.

Speaker 2: Putting a controversial hat in the store that I think is going to be on the comeback sooner than you think. I'm not going to say what it is, but I think if you imagine seeing as, like, fashion is cyclical, something that was, like, in style twenty five years ago, twenty eight years ago, I feel like it's gotta make a comeback. I feel I feel like it's coming back. So So we're putting one of those in the store, and we'll see we'll see. The analytics will tell us whether it's on the come up or not.

Speaker 1: I'm so intrigued. When you said old timey hat and you said twenty years ago, which is not what I'm picturing, but I was picturing immediately like a pinky blinders cap, which just doesn't match with the sorta techy hacked things that we're looking for. Paperboy hats? Little And Little newsboy caps. Yeah. Totally.

Speaker 2: I do like a newsboy cap. Don't wear them. They don't suit me, but but I do like them. I find it. I date the aesthetic.

Speaker 1: No. I bring too much newsboy energy just when I wake up in the morning. Like, if I then add a newsboy cap, it's no. I'm I can't pull it off. I can't rock.

Speaker 2: I feel like the long Gore Tex trench, you know, the blundies. I feel I feel like the newsboy cap could fly in that world. Yeah. Maybe.

Speaker 1: May I said maybe like I agreed, but I didn't. I am not sure if that

Speaker 2: I do really wanna talk about, last, the last episode, the one that I missed Mhmm. Your interview. I thought it was great. But I think before we jump into that, we should maybe Oh. Thank some patrons.

Speaker 1: I think that we should probably thank some some of our new patrons at hackedpodcast.com. A really fantastic way to support the show.

Speaker 2: Absolutely. I would like to thank Heather Scott. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1: You know what? I too would like to say And Chris Fawn. Heather Scott and Chris Fawn. Fawn. I as I as I as I conjure the list in front of me, I'd like to just double down on thanking our dear friends

Speaker 2: Heather and Chris. K. Well, then, also, we should should direct that thanks to, a Rachel Jess and a Mikhail Okskowski.

Speaker 1: Mikhail Okskowski and Rachel Jess, thank you so much. I'm k. We're we're double dipping this whole thing. Rachel. Thanks.

Speaker 2: Okay. Let's do it.

Speaker 1: Let's do it.

Speaker 2: Mikhail. Thanks. I got I don't know if you've seen the top of this list, but the the last one is gonna be a trial for even you. Mhmm. The Yep. I would like to thank Avant Gardener

Speaker 1: Oh, Gardener. Which I'm Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: Sure is probably not your name. No. Thank you so much anyway. But

Speaker 1: it's a heck of a handle, and I really like it. Thank you so much, Yvont. And last but certainly not least, Coollet Jibgast.

Speaker 2: Coollet

Speaker 1: shrugging in the darkness like, you two. Honestly, it really does mean a lot to us. Like, we talk about this before we start recording. Thank you all so much.

Speaker 2: I actually know a bit of Dutch and was thinking that this might be some word that I've never heard, so I Googled it. And I I found a Twitch streamer, with the same name. So if that's you, thank you very much. But I could not find a definition or a pronunciation guide for this word, so we are very, very sorry for how bad we butchered it.

Speaker 1: We're flying without a parachute. I can't remember what it was, but in the hacked discord, which you can get access to if you if you support the show on Patreon, it's a lot of fun. Very little fun, nerdy community. I was talking with a guy who I believe is Polish who, correctly roasted my Polish pronunciation

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: In a past episode of something. So I feel like for whatever the dynamic is that I'm good at riffing out a pronunciation off the dome. Not that good at it.

Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure he'll have something to say about Mikhail Okskowski because I believe that's also Polish, and I apologize.

Speaker 1: Looks it looks very Polish. Thank you all so much. It means a lot. Hackpodcast.com if you wanna support the show.

Speaker 2: K. Let's talk about let's talk about the last episode. So sad I missed it. Honestly, when I was listening to it, I was really sad I missed it because, the gentleman Damien sounds like totally somebody that I'd get along with.

Speaker 1: I think he would. Yeah.

Speaker 2: He's fanatical and nerdy. Totally. He was he was he was all I look for in a podcast interview partner. You know?

Speaker 1: You and him are we're gonna have to link you two up. Yeah. He was a really nice dude. He made time to talk with us. He's done a lot of interviews about this, which is always interesting to sit down with someone who has been able to talk through something. And he's still he's still really engaged in it. Like, he's finding fun new ways to think about it. He's an interesting guy, unique intersection of tech, law,

Speaker 2: and

Speaker 1: a really passionate, creator and consumer of the arts. Cool guy. Interesting story. Mhmm. And like we talk about in the episode, it is fun to imagine or interesting to imagine what a less altruistic person with the same idea Damien had might have done with this idea and kinda just being thankful that it was Damien and his buddy Noah

Speaker 2: that cooked it up. Mhmm. Mhmm. The, one of the things I found interesting is I'm when he was talking about the connection to Spotify and looking at, like, you know, cataloguing songs based on the melodies that were in use.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 2: There's a and it was it was, I think, a question that you asked him that brought him into that realm, talking about, like, looking at it and evaluating melodies and using AI to predict what will be good. Sure. The there's actually years and years and years ago, I read kind of, like, a white paper from these this group called Hook Theory. Okay. And it was kind of in a similar thing where they'd taken, like, almost all the pop songs they could get their hands on and essentially cataloged and archived their their chord progressions and melodies.

Speaker 1: Oh, I remember this. Yeah. I've been to this before. This is really cool. Yeah.

Speaker 2: So they built this entire so I when I first saw it, it was literally like a white paper that they had written. But now there's, like, software,

Speaker 1: and they

Speaker 2: have this entire suite of of things. But you can be like, I want the first note of my progression to be an f sharp.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: It'll be like, 76% of the time, this is followed by a c or, like, you know, it'll it'll kinda give you these predictive measures, and then it'll show you what pop songs kind of were constructed using the same mathematical process. So, anyway, very cool very cool little little add on. Not sure if it relates, but it'd be interesting to look at taking their their melodies and running them through that. And it'd be another interesting way to use the data and marry it up. But I think just a a a cool tidbit that I would have thrown in had I been there. So

Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's super related. And it would be cool to almost, like, take the dataset that they created and cross reference it against what Hook theory knows about popular songs and see, okay. Well, a lot of popular songs would go from a c to a g minor. How many times does that transition take place inside of this dataset?

Speaker 2: It would also be cool to to build the antithesis set or the anti set of that. Take all the bad songs that aren't popular. Yeah. Catalog them and and then build the construct the the anti hook theory of being like, if you started this with this, definitely don't use this. These songs are bad.

Speaker 1: Anyway No. It's interesting.

Speaker 2: Very, very cool interview.

Speaker 1: Two things come to mind. Thank you, man. I appreciate that. And, the next our next fun interview, we won't spoil it, but we're all all three of us, you, me, and the subject are all gonna be there, and I think people are gonna really enjoy it.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It's hope. It's hope.

Speaker 1: It's, the last thing I wanna say about this, and it's just because you brought up Hook Theory. So I've been using chat g p t for music, and it's pretty good. Say you're writing a piece of music, and you're like, okay. I'm going from a major up to c sharp minor down to f sharp minor. Generate me a couple options for a next chord to go to if I wanted to do a country shuffle turnaround style thing. You can give it that sort of natural language prompting, and it's really good at helping you figure out what the next chord is.

Speaker 2: Really?

Speaker 1: It's pretty good at it. Yeah. It has and it it it seems to understand what it's talking about. It's not like when you ask it to do math and it's like, I'm pretty confident this is the number, and you realize, I don't think you know what numbers are. It's not doing that. It's it is scraped to the right data set to be able to answer some of these questions. But the thought I had was it can write music for me to then play. It can only write out text. The thought I had was, could I get it to play music? Is there a way to wire ChatGPT together so that it could produce something that I could listen to?

Speaker 2: So That should be very easy. You'd just be pumping out MIDI.

Speaker 1: So at GPT can't produce MIDI files, but it can create, event lists, which are a plain text version of the information that is stored inside of a MIDI file. You know, I'm talking about where it says at this moment, turn this

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. On at this velocity. Yeah. So what I had it do Gate open, gate closed. Exactly.

Speaker 1: I went to Jordan's first programming exercise. I, using ChatGPT, installed a little midi library for Python, and I had it write a little Python script to convert event event lists into MIDI files. Then I created a prompt to have it take whatever musical prompt I've given it and convert it into one of these event lists, which I then run through the Python script, which kicks out a MIDI file, which I brought into Logic. And I had it play. I had a natural language, thing, play some piano chords, and it worked. Wow.

Speaker 2: Was it good?

Speaker 1: No. It sounded like shit. It wasn't very good at all.

Speaker 2: So so you and I both know that music is math. Yeah. We both know that ChatGPT is bad at math. So it we can then infer that ChatGPT is bad at music.

Speaker 1: It's you know what it is? It's pretty good at it's okay at writing music. It's atrocious at playing music. The second I asked it to play, it was like, you want these chords played rapidly then? Like, one, two, three, four. It's like, no. Slow it down. You know, give me four beats between the chord transitions, and it just I don't know. It had no soul. The the midi it was kicking out had no soul. So we've got a ways to go on that, but, it was a pretty fun experiment.

Speaker 2: K. So so we can fix ChatGPT midi, the Jordan Blumen project, by giving ChatGPT soul. We have to train it what soul is. I Should give it that prompt. Define what is soul in regards to music and then implement that in the generation of my midi, please.

Speaker 1: Honestly, you should see some of these prompts. We should move on. But you there's some of the prompts I was giving it. Once I'd gotten the thing stitched together, but it was churning out really, really bad piano performances, I was get like, I was real I was like a director trying to coax the performance out of an actor. Like, no. Slow down. It's soulful. I want you to think about your relationship with this person. I was just trying to get something out of it, and it couldn't it couldn't do it. It couldn't do it.

Speaker 2: Imagine imagine you're a teenage girl in love Totally. Just experienced your first heartbreak.

Speaker 1: We're gonna

Speaker 2: Now take that energy and apply it to this chord progression.

Speaker 1: Exactly. And it's like, do you mean bong? I'm like, no. I didn't mean bong. Yeah. It didn't work, but, we'll check-in in six months. I'll see if if the, event lists it kicks out are any better than the ones that it was giving me.

Speaker 2: I think we should give you some commendations. You did your first programming thing.

Speaker 1: I did. I got it.

Speaker 2: Wrote a bit of Python. You installed a external library and used it in your Python. You probably took input from a command line. Very good. I'm I'm impressed. I treat it.

Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. It was such a small deal, non you know, it's just such a it doesn't matter at all that I brought it up on my podcast for everyone to hear about it.

Speaker 2: Did you have to parse, like, the open text, like, the event list? Did you have to dump it in as text and then iterate through it line by line parsing it?

Speaker 1: It's I didn't have to parse the event list. Though probably I could have gotten better results if I did, but, yeah, I had to grab the event list as text and bring it into the Python, script every single time I was doing this. There's like essentially like a little area where I plop that in.

Speaker 2: So you had, like, an open variable that was the event list.

Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. I'm sure there's a better way to do it than that.

Speaker 2: So in week two of Jordan's programming thing, you can open an external file and read the contents in.

Speaker 1: Oh, dang. Okay. Next up.

Speaker 2: So we we'll we'll we'll execute three more weeks of Python tutorials, and then we'll get back to everybody that listens to this podcast about how you're coming as a as a junior programmer.

Speaker 1: Stay posted, and I'll I'll drop the record. Whenever I think it's ready, I'll teach you how to chop samples.

Speaker 2: Somebody must have this is we're just completely in digression land here, but somebody must have written an API into chat gbt. So you wouldn't even need to give it prompts. You could put the prompts inside of the Python file or type them into the command line as you're generating it. And then That's probably you probably wouldn't even wouldn't even have to bring the MIDI into I believe you can play do you remember original music on the Internet? This might be before your time. But people would input MIDI, and it would, like, essentially be you put a MIDI file on your, like, you know, GeoCities page, and it would make, like, bings and bongs and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I wonder if you could actually coax Python into into autoplaying it. Exactly. Exactly. Scrolling flaming text and autoloading MIDI.

Speaker 1: Yeah. There's a reason that didn't come back during the, Webexy nostalgia little wave that we're in right now. No. Honestly, I mean, you bring up a good point. I think this whole thing about a week after I did this, I was fiddling around in ChatGPT, and I was getting some new, plugins installed. You have ChatGPT ChatGPT four. You can run plugins. They've gotten quite good. And I was like, this is someone's just gonna make this into a plugin. Like, this whole silly work around, they're just gonna figure out a way to let it produce MIDI files.

Speaker 2: It'd be very easy. This is

Speaker 1: like a plug in ready type thing. It'd be really, really easy. And, honestly, it sounds like DALL E three, the image generation also created by OpenAI, is going to be woven directly into ChatGPT four in the coming weeks, which sort of just paints a world where you can do natural language prompts to create images, and inevitably, you'll be able to do natural language prompts to create audio files, eventually, video files. Like, that's they wanna be the big dog. They're probably gonna weave it all into that system, and anything they don't will become, like, market share for plug in developers.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Microsoft wants to see it as soon as possible.

Speaker 1: Okay. Vegas. Let's talk about Vegas.

Speaker 2: Let's talk about Vegas. Jordan, what do you think about Vegas? Do you love Vegas? Do you hate Vegas? Have you been to Vegas?

Speaker 1: I I've never been to Vegas as an adult. I have memories of going as, like, a little kid on a family trip, but I've never had the, like, modern I've never had the full Las Vegas experience. How about you, Scott?

Speaker 2: You've never had the bachelor party? The Vegas bachelor party?

Speaker 1: No. None of them have gone there. No.

Speaker 2: I recently went to Vegas. I hadn't been there since I was a child, on the same kind of thing, going to see the Grand Canyon, etcetera, etcetera, and, just flew in and out of Vegas. But loved it because I was a little skater rat, and there were plenty of places to skateboard, and it was a Nice. Kind of a vibe down there.

Speaker 1: I see that.

Speaker 2: But the, yeah. Went back as an adult two years ago. Some friends that got married in COVID, had no wedding, no bachelor party, no stag party. So we went Vegas to them for, like, a weekend away and, had a terrible time. Definitely definitely don't think I'm a Vegas type. I do like I do like gambling, which is, like, should mean that I love Vegas, but it's just kind of it's just kind of like a let's just say that the vibe is not my vibe down there. I was I didn't have a terrible time. I had a lovely time with friends and ate some good food and stuff like that. But everything's, you know, very opulent, very over the top. And then you leave the strip, and it's very much not like that. And it's still kinda, like, seedy and dirty. Sure. I don't know. Didn't love Vegas. Let's just say that. For no no no reasons to go back.

Speaker 1: It's one of those places where I I know I'm gonna have a strong reaction to it in one of two directions. I'm either gonna have the intuitive one, which is that this city exists in defiance of God's will in the middle of the desert. Everything costs a fortune, and I'm not having a good time. Or it might, like, twist all the way back around to being, like, this is the tackiest thing I've ever seen, and it rules. Like, I don't know which of the two it's gonna be, but it's one of the two. Not to call Vegas tacky. It might be a lovely city.

Speaker 2: When you're under the baby Eiffel Tower. Yeah. It it like, it it's definitely got a thing. Like, if you if you're, like a conference, like Defcon or something, like, great place to have it because you're probably not leaving a confined area. Yes.

Speaker 1: Sure. And you're

Speaker 2: just hanging out with a bunch of people, lots of services, lots of restaurants, lots of things to do. There's always things to do, which I think would be the best thing.

Speaker 1: I think we gotta check out Defcon next week.

Speaker 2: But the vibe of it? Yeah. The, like, the, like, thousands of, like, drunk college people.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: You know? And I don't know. It was it's it's an interesting place.

Speaker 1: Interesting place.

Speaker 2: Let's just say that. It's an interesting place. Interesting place. But, anyway, what else happens in Vegas?

Speaker 1: Well, twenty minutes deep into the cybersecurity show, some stuff got hacked. This past month, Las Vegas was the epicenter of a significant cyberattack targeting two of the most prominent casino chains. You've heard of them, MGM Resorts and Caesars Entertainment. Did you happen to stay at either of those two, Scott?

Speaker 2: I did. I think I did actually stay at an MGM property. Because that's the thing is, like, these are such massive Yep. Consortiums that they own so much. Yeah. Because I know this hack also affected their what's the little part in China? The little Las Vegas of China. Why can I not remember that? Oh, Macau. Macau. Also affected their Macau properties. So I think it I think it completely turned off most of their casino operations globally.

Speaker 1: Yeah. You you got it. Macau. There I have been. Very cool place.

Speaker 2: You've been to Macau?

Speaker 1: As you I have been to Macau. Yeah. I made the trip when, my partner and I were in Hong Kong. We kicked it over there.

Speaker 2: It's like a

Speaker 1: crazy, like, bridge. It was really cool. Mhmm. Very cool place. I think different than Vegas in a lot of ways, but, similar in some other ways. But in any case yeah. So as you said, MGM isn't one resort. The affected properties here at the whole line that they have, Mandalay Bay, Bellagio, Aria, bunch of different places. So it's worth talking about the differences between these two hacks. We're gonna get to Caesars. Suffice it to say it was milder. The MGM Resort, hack was not just a data leak, like we've kind of talked about here before. This was a real physical infrastructure compromise. Throughout the casinos themselves, just the basic functions of the building were being interrupted. Key cards were not opening doors into rooms. Slot machines were going dark. ATMs were malfunctioning. The credit infrastructure for things like food and beverages throughout the resorts, those weren't working. There's been a slow recovery, but early I think as of time of this recording, some of those systems still are technically offline.

Speaker 2: The name of the hacker group, I find interesting. Scattered Spider.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 2: That's the name. Right? That's who who's being implicated as being behind it? Yeah. You got it. Scattered Spider.

Speaker 1: Scattered Spider, also known as u n c three nine four four, scatters swine or muddled Libra. But the name you hear most is scattered spider. So we should talk a little bit more about what happened in MGM and, Caesars. But just to give you a a sense of it, the high level, like the big headline for scattered spider group is young and social engineering. Best estimates are that they're between the ages of 19 and 22, probably based in The US or The UK, which is pretty novel for these groups across a couple of different, axes. And the last big important thing is that they're voice phishing people. They work with another group called ALPHV. I guess, Alpha v, you might call that. Alpha v, who is providing the ransomware as Alpha v. Alpha v, who is I'm not trying to mispronounce their name at all. They're the group providing the ransomware as a service that Scattered Spider seems to have deployed in this hack against MGM, but their role in it was they did the calls.

Speaker 2: Remember we're talking about some of the lapses hacks? This one because this this one was

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Similar ish in the sense that right at the beginning of, like, the first thing I read about this hack, Okta got mentioned. And I was like, oh, is this another Okta related one? Because I remember that was

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: Coming through. And I was like, so then Okta eventually came out and said, yes. We we were related in this. There were compromised Okta servers. And apparently, they were sniffing like, they'd set up sniffers and stuff on those servers and were actually, like, using them to expand their access into the domain. So Interesting. Yeah. It's like, I feel bad for Okta because I feel like the last the last bunch of big hacks like this I've read about, they've been not implicated, but, like, their name is in the in the credit roll. You know? And it's it's for somebody who makes cybersecurity software and two factor authentication stuff, when when when major hacks come out and you're getting talked about as being a origin point or something like that for an attack vector, it's, like, bad. Bad. So I feel I feel bad for them. I know probably would like, everything that I've heard, this happens to be more of, like, a social engineering. They, you know, got a bunch of access, use that access to gain more access, etcetera, etcetera. But just, just another another point of interest that they're they're in the in the in the credit role for this hack.

Speaker 1: It's tough. It's sort of like market share invites a law of large numbers problem. Exactly. You make, by all accounts, one of the best products in this category, which has earned you all of this market share, which just means that venture you're gonna be involved with some some compromises.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Exactly.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's the sharp edge of success. So, yeah, as you said, it looks like they scattered spider collaborating with alpha alpha v alpha. Gained access to MGM's internal systems on 09/11/2023. Looks like they posed as an employee that they found on LinkedIn and called MGM's help desk to obtain internal access. This is how they were able to get that toehold and basically just turn the whole operation off. You brought this up earlier. Correct. But there's pretty severe financial fallout. There's two different prongs to this. The first one is just sort of the basic operations of the casino. It's tricky to get the exact numbers right, and we'll talk about why in a little bit. But, insider coverage spoke with a professor at the University of Nevada, Gregory Moody, who crunching out an $8,000,000 a day expense at a ten days of this compromise really being in full swing puts the cost of this at about 80,000,000. Moody also flagged that the revenue is about 14,000,000,000, which would suggest a $2.70 a week in revenue. So somewhere in the hundreds of millions of dollars just for interruptions to a casino floor and hotel rooms. They were, like, issuing handwritten receipts for casino winnings. They really did manage to disrupt these businesses in a pretty profound way. Mhmm. The other thing is, like, stock prices.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. I I I fully suspect that they went down here. Let me I'm pulling this up.

Speaker 1: I saw enough to know that they didn't go up when this happened.

Speaker 2: So was our timeline? September

Speaker 1: I think September 11 is when it September 10 or eleventh is when it started. And I'm not sure when the news broke. But I think it was pretty quickly after that because torso. Not opening. It's

Speaker 2: pretty canceling your bookings. September 11 September 7 was when the attack was launched, and September 11 is when the statement came out as per a timeline. So let's just put that with the share price. So let's say so funny enough, September 8, the day after, their share price hit a bit of a mid range high at about 44 US a share. And, as of now, it's about $36.37. So, yeah, it's down considerably, but not not, you know, completely broken. It's not like they took, like, a 60% wipe, which is good.

Speaker 1: They still own a bunch of casinos. They'll bounce back.

Speaker 2: They got money machines.

Speaker 1: They got money machines.

Speaker 2: Called humans that come through the door.

Speaker 1: A little bit. The other thing that's worth bringing up here is that so there's MGM, physical infrastructure affected, still sort of recovering. Alternatively, Caesars was hacked at the same time. So it's important to clarify here that we're in, like, a real fog of war situation when it comes to this. This is all a couple of weeks out, and the people involved in this are social engineers. So there's a an element of it's really, really, really hard to know, if a statement is coming from a true source, if it is coming from the real source, but they're misrepresenting what happened. Basically, it's not totally clear that MGM and Caesars are being done by the same people. They did happen at the same time, but to wildly different effect. Caesar's reportedly paid a ransom of $15,000,000 to the hacking group responsible for their hack, a negotiation down from the original demands of $30,000,000. And it seems like they kinda got away okay. They didn't suffer any public outages. They seem to have managed to have worked their way through this. It looks like they were like, the hackers did gain access through social engineering, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was scattered spider. Sure could. It's pretty remarkable coincidence if it didn't. But at this point, it's kinda just too early to know. I think that's part of the danger of a lot of these things is we're just talking about secondary reporting. But I read a couple of stories that I won't bring up where claims were made that were later, denounced by Scattered Spider on their official blog. Now they're social engineers, and that's a pretty great way to engineer a little bit of distrust about the people covering you. But it could also just be that it's really easy to trick a journalist on, you know, a signal chat into thinking that you're a hacker. So it's still pretty early days. The fog of war is thick. We don't totally know what happens, but something went down in Las Vegas.

Speaker 2: I do know however, we're gonna I'm just gonna call it alpha for the sake of it because b let's just call it Alpha. Alpha, the the the group they actually did claim responsibility for the MGM attack, but then they also denied involvement in the Caesars hack. So I'm not sure I'm not sure. You never know. Exactly. But what a what a day on the strip in Las Vegas it would have been. So

Speaker 1: Yeah. I wanna go to Las Vegas for Defcon at some point in the future because it seems like it would be an interesting experience and some great content for the show. But, honestly, I would swap it out to be on Las Vegas the week that this hack

Speaker 2: was done. I

Speaker 1: think that would be quite the experience.

Speaker 2: I just love would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in, like, the CISO's office or something, like, the chief security person's. Just be like, oh, no. This is the the worst thing that could have happened.

Speaker 1: Yeah. The doors aren't opening.

Speaker 2: Yeah. All of our systems are compromised. It's amazing it's amazing when it comes to infrastructure how usually the biggest walls are on the outside. So the second you can get through you can get like, the second you can get the door open and get in the building, it's way easier to, you know, have your way with the rest of the infrastructure. Like, if you think about it in the sense of a crime thing, it's like you break into the gallery. And once you're in the gallery, you get to kinda choose and, you know

Speaker 1: A 100%.

Speaker 2: Kind of suss things out better. So you kinda get that same vibe.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, clearly, that's what happened here. One lie to the right person and some technical know how. Pretty much gave him free run of a Las Vegas casino chain. So that's not even a Las Vegas casino chain.

Speaker 2: Like, it didn't go. Casino chain. Yeah. Yeah. That's wild. Because wasn't there didn't was it alpha alpha? I'm gonna call him alpha. It wasn't an alpha that tweeted out that it was, like, all of this pain came from a ten minute call phone call or something? It was like they they, like, were they were they were mocking it. Yeah. I can't remember where I saw that. I think I might've seen it on on on x, not Twitter, on x.

Speaker 1: On x. Yeah. It's it's a lot of the press coverage, I think, rightly focuses on the social engineering and, age and native English proficiency of the hackers. There's something it's just a little bit different than a lot of these groups to suddenly have a person who, you know, I understand the Western context intimately because I'm from Denver or wherever they turn out to have been from. To be like, no, it's a lot, it's just a lot easier to lie to someone when you share all of that cultural background. And we don't know exactly where they're from. But if those, early reports are true, it it, suggests a generational shift, I guess.

Speaker 2: Well, the because the lapses stuff, they kinda trace back. That was out of Great Britain. So it wouldn't wouldn't surprise me if this was

Speaker 1: No.

Speaker 2: In a similar but also, again, too, when you're if your name is Scattered Spider, I wouldn't doubt it if it was a number of people from a number of English speaking countries that coordinate and collaborate would make sense.

Speaker 1: Honestly, you really just need one person. It's it's it's like the ocean's 11 thing. You really you need one person for each job on the crew. And as long as one of you is really good at getting on the horn with someone and just bullshitting your way through some kind of a system, that's really all you need.

Speaker 2: Mhmm. Mhmm. Should we take a little ad break?

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Speaker 1: Well, before we get to, the Sony hack, I have a really important question to ask you, which is PlayStation or Xbox, Scott?

Speaker 2: Tough tough tough question, Jordan.

Speaker 1: Hard hit. I got asked this what we do here at Hack.

Speaker 2: I get I get asked this quite a bit actually by people that I know. Because they're like, hey, you work in the games industry. Sure. Why don't you tell me which console I should buy now that you can actually get one of them?

Speaker 1: Yes. That's true.

Speaker 2: Here's what I'm gonna tell you. I've been a PlayStation ride or die.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: And I think Xbox is the way to go going forward.

Speaker 1: I am intrigued. Yes.

Speaker 2: So here here is my

Speaker 1: Talking about that cloud gaming clout?

Speaker 2: No. I'm talking about Nope. The fact that I think when you see how the sausage is made, video games are built often for PC and adapted to console. So what that means is is that the games are tuned essentially to run in a PC world, in a Microsoft structured world often. And the thing with an Xbox is essentially nowadays, it's just a PC. So when a game developer decides to release new cutting edge features or, you know, implement better use of the graphics infrastructure, to release that on an Xbox is like a couple of, like, you know, switches in the code. To release that on a PlayStation is a much larger problem. So I think just for the fact that the games industry has gone to a ship it and we'll fix it later structure Right. I think I think I think my recommendation is Xbox just given the fact that the developer community responds to the

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: Can any any changes in things and fixes that they're making on the PC, in the in the code for the game Sure. Will hit will hit PCs and Xboxes at the same time, which are often the priority, and then the PlayStation will be the the leftover. So I've see I've seen that in a number of, like, large point patch upgrades

Speaker 1: for

Speaker 2: certain games, is that the PC version gets better access to new features and field of view changes and things like that where the PlayStation has to wait three, four months for that change.

Speaker 1: Inside lane. Yeah. I got you.

Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. Great. Great. Great analogy. Inside lane. Xboxes have the inside lane and PlayStations have the outside lane.

Speaker 1: Mhmm. So Well, before we get to the Sony

Speaker 2: app With that being said, PlayStation ride or die.

Speaker 1: Being said. Place no. I'm I'm with you. I was like a PlayStation kid for years. Xbox's new cloud gaming stuff is really, really cool. I've been playing Starfield exclusively over I haven't installed it. I don't have a disc. I haven't installed it on a console. I've been playing it purely through, xCloud. And it's a pretty great experience. It's like loading up Netflix on an iPad and connecting a controller, and you're just playing the game. It's great. Very cool. It's very, very fun.

Speaker 2: I have Starfield downloaded and have not started it. I think

Speaker 1: you might like it. Did you ever play Fallout?

Speaker 2: I did. I did play Fallout. I I also played Mass Effect and worked on it. I I hear Yes. It has Mass Effect y vibes, but isn't Mass Effect y. Yeah. It's I've I've Yeah. I'll say this. As somebody who is excited for it to come out, set up the predownload, got it downloaded, and never found the time to play, The initial reviews that came out made me really wanna play. And it seems last I heard, like, its Metacritic score has been sliding.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So I'm not sure what's going on or maybe the game doesn't have as good a mid game or late game play, but it seems it seems like, it went from, oh my god. This is the best thing ever to, yeah. So I'm not sure not sure what the hot change is, but I have to check it out for myself.

Speaker 1: Well, I'm curious for your take on it. I've been having a good time. I like me some practical sci fi.

Speaker 2: Nice.

Speaker 1: But beep beep beep. I'm a back this thing back up the road. Xbox, PlayStation, Sony did get hacked, I think, yesterday.

Speaker 2: Again.

Speaker 1: Again, yesterday at the time of recording.

Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. It was September 25. We were recording on the twenty sixth, and I think the announcement was the twenty fifth.

Speaker 1: Australian cybersecurity publication Cybersecurity Connect broke the story of a hack by a new ransomware crew called ransomed.vc.

Speaker 2: Ransomed.vc sounds like a group that'll be pitching at the crypto whale show, but we can talk about that later. The thing that I so I find I find the information that came out on this very interesting because it almost sounds like there's there's contradicting pieces of information. Like, they say that what I've read is that they've compromised every one of Sony's systems, but that that they only have 6,000 files. And if you think about an organization, it's like

Speaker 1: the Interesting.

Speaker 2: The amount of files, like, you think about anything. Like, you guys use Unity on one of your games. Like, you like, just Unity alone has, like, 16,000 files. Like, 6,000 files is not a lot of information, unless they're, like, 6,000 backups of the entire system. But the No. So anyway, every system, 6,000 files, and that they're not even holding it for ransom. They've decided that the value of the intellectual property is higher than that they would get for the ransoms. They're actually essentially putting them for sale in in the dark net. So it's like I don't know. It's just it's a it's a a unique spin on it. I would have assumed that they would be like, we have the entire like, it's not just PlayStation either. They're talking about Sony as a as a whole. So it's like a lot of what Sony does in the electronics world is patented. So it's like, well, whatever you steal regarding patented stuff is less exciting to us. We can rip something that Sony makes apart and look at the circuit board and reverse engineer it. Like, that's not the craziest value of IP. The PlayStation stuff for sure, you know, any of the Sony gaming, Sony Entertainment stuff. The Sony because it was Sony Entertainment that got hacked last time. Right? It was the theater side, wasn't it?

Speaker 1: I think it was primarily Yeah. Theatrical side of things because it concerned a Seth Rogen movie about North Korea, I believe, was the the trigger for that. Yes. Right. What a time.

Speaker 2: What a time to be alive, Jordan.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Anyway, so my it just it seems like I would have thought, well, like, if it if they'd said that we have 6,000,000 files, that would have been like, okay.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Like, now it's a but 6,000 files

Speaker 1: It's not that big of a number.

Speaker 2: You get?

Speaker 1: Yeah. They posted some evidence of the hack, like screenshots of an internal login page, a PowerPoint presentation, some Java files, and a document tree of the 6,000 files. But as of date, we don't really know what it is. I think the specific post date that it's supposed to be going live, I guess, for sale is September 28, which we're still a few days out from. But they did post some text with this announcement. As you mentioned, quote, we have successfully compromised all of Sony's systems. We won't ransom them. We will sell the data due to Sony not wanting to pay. Data is for sale. We are selling it. The last two were in all caps.

Speaker 2: But what pro what probably happened is that Sony has good good security systems, and

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: They ransomed and locked up a bunch of stuff. And they were just like, whatever. We have a hot storage over here with a backup of it. Just delete it and redo, copy, paste. And they were like, well, if you're not gonna pay, we're gonna sell it. Exactly. It also like, and this is maybe this is just me, and maybe I'm talking too much, but I feel like maybe they maybe they just copied all the files off of a shared drive. Like, they found a Samba share sitting in the in the network, and they copied those files. Like, to have a directory tree and to have, like it just, like, it just seems like something that, like, an f drive would have on it. You know? It's like, yeah. We found this shared internal network drive, and we copied it. It's like, cool.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's gonna be one of two things. Either September 26, they're gonna drop this, and everyone's gonna go, why wouldn't Sony have paid for this? This includes their plans for the PlayStation six. Or Yep. They're gonna post something on September 26, and someone's gonna overpay for, as you said, some files pulled out of a shared drive that Sony decided were not worth any money whatsoever. Sony has announced that they're investigating the situation. No further comment. And as we mentioned earlier, this isn't the first time Sony has been hacked. Sony Entertainment did forget though, the Sony PlayStation Network was breached and 77,000,000 registered accounts were compromised, to some degree during that, previous hack. A little over a decade ago at this point.

Speaker 2: I was one of those accounts. Who are you? I was. Yeah. Interesting.

Speaker 1: I guess it technically would have been two.

Speaker 2: I think but I if I remember this correctly, I think Sony afterwards prepaid for a year of

Speaker 1: like a Oh, nice.

Speaker 2: Identity theft prevention system.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 2: I think it I think this was the PSN hack. It was something that I was on that got hacked. I got, like, a year of, like, essentially identity theft prevention where it was monitoring a bunch of different websites to make sure nobody was using my information and Right. All this jazz. So I think I'm pretty sure that was that one. But but, yeah, I do I do remember that one. That definitely did hit me. So, what else was I gonna say about this? There was something else that was jumping to my mind that I wanted to say about this, and now it is completely gone.

Speaker 1: Was it a bomb ass pivot to stalkerware? Is that what popped into your brain?

Speaker 2: It could be. It is now.

Speaker 1: It is now. Does this count?

Speaker 2: This is

Speaker 1: where we're going.

Speaker 2: It is now.

Speaker 1: Strap in.

Speaker 2: This is This have you have you never heard of pivot this bomb ass before? Well, let me tell you.

Speaker 1: So a couple of episodes ago, we talked a little bit about Stalkerware. Stalkerware for anyone that didn't hear that episode and is unfamiliar, Broadstrokes is just, surveillance software installed on a person's device without their consent. These are just apps that are meant to pretend to be a Wi Fi app on a Android device or something, you know, they're hiding in plain sight, and what they're actually doing is uploading, the user's behavior to an account that the person who installed it, the stalker in the titular stalkerware, can see it. Stalkerware, not good. No bueno. We don't like it. Talked about it a few episodes ago, and this is a really quick quick one, but, it looks like some hackers, went after a piece of stalker we're called web detective, not detective. Detetective. Correct. Mhmm. Detetective. Their servers, access users' database, and, deleted it. Just deleted all of it. Mhmm. Delete deleted all the victims' information devices from the spyware network, preventing the uploading of new data from those devices. And to they then posted a hashtag fuck stalkerware. So if it was if there's any ambiguity as to why they did this, that can make it perfect.

Speaker 2: So how do you feel about this one?

Speaker 1: I think it's a cool, good thing to do. So

Speaker 2: you're fully in the fully fully in the Robinhood camp?

Speaker 1: It's really, really hard for me to empathize with this for with the developers in this software. It's a tough world. I get you gotta make your racket. But, OwnSpy developed by Mobile Innovations in Spain makes a product that I think probably shouldn't exist. And it shouldn't exist, not in the sense that it offers no utility, but it in it offers, negative utility. It it's harmful. It's a bad thing. It does bad in the world. And I think it's pretty neat that this happened. Can I say that? I think I can say that. How do you feel about it, Scott?

Speaker 2: See, See, I've known Jordan long enough and know him morally.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 2: And know that when he picked this story that he picked it because he's happy about this.

Speaker 1: Yeah. You can hear it in my voice.

Speaker 2: On the record being like, you can definitely hear your voice.

Speaker 1: Yeah. No.

Speaker 2: And I think, I think I've said this before on a previous podcast where we touched on something similar to this, that it's like, you know, if if there's two different people breaking a breaking the law. Sure. One's doing it for a positive outcome, and one's doing it for a negative outcome.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: You know? Which one do you like more?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So

Speaker 1: No. This this feels to me like peak, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Speaker 2: Totally.

Speaker 1: And having one and a half gigabytes of your very precious customer information get deleted off your servers, essentially, nerfing your product. I, I think that's cool.

Speaker 2: This makes me feel sentimental for when the cybersecurity and hacker community was more like this and less like Sure. Russian ransomware. It was more like, hey. There's people out here doing bad things, and they're keeping information from the public, and we've liberated that information so that people know it. And less of people being like, your hospital can't function, and someone's gonna die if you don't transfer us 12,000,000,000 in crypto. It's like, cool.

Speaker 1: I, completely agree.

Speaker 2: It it it

Speaker 1: has shades. It really does of, like, you can imagine the nineties hacker movie of, like, well, we need a villain. It's like, have you heard of a thing called, let me just get check my notes, stalkerware? Exactly. Yeah. That's a really, really good villain, for a band of Robin Hoods, to borrow your your phrasing.

Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah. So

Speaker 1: keep it up. Last but not least.

Speaker 2: Last but not least.

Speaker 1: I wanna I wanna take this thing over to a place we haven't gone, I think, about a month.

Speaker 2: Don't do it. Let's go

Speaker 1: over to the crypto corner. Do it. Don't do it. My journey. Do it. Don't take me there.

Speaker 2: Okay. Let's talk about crypto. Let's talk about how JPMorgan, one of the largest, most respected banks in the world, is now not letting its clients buy cryptocurrencies, citing risks from criminals.

Speaker 1: Interesting quote, from Chase spokesperson in an email to Blockworks. We are committed to helping keep our customers' money safe and secure. We've seen an increase in the number of crypto scams targeting UK customers, so we've taken the decision to prevent the purchase of crypto assets on a Chase debit card or by transferring money to a crypto site from a Chase account. So this isn't a matter of Chase was functioning as a cryptocurrency exchange. Mhmm. This is you can't use your fiat currency stored in our platform to purchase this product.

Speaker 2: What?

Speaker 1: That's kind of why.

Speaker 2: Well, you think about it like this. Visa has Visa, MasterCard, all AmEx, all the big credit card companies have some of the most and banks wrapped into that have some

Speaker 1: of the

Speaker 2: most comprehensive risk management, risk mitigation, fraud prevention department systems, AIs that the world has seen. Like, AI is

Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure.

Speaker 2: Like, as somebody that was into AI, like, banking was, like, one of the first places where it went. Like, the well, the public is seeing AI now, but it it's it's existed in detecting patterns and things that violate patterns in in payment processing for a long time. And that is unsurprising that, like Sure. Hey. Your Visa card gets compromised. And what do they do with it? They immediately turn real fiat currency into money that we don't can't take back. Yeah. There's no retailer at the other end being like, hey.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure. I can give you this money back.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: I I get why from a risk mitigation perspective, it makes absolute sense. The bank, quoting again from that article, cited a study from Action Fraud, fraud reporting agency in The UK, which found consumer loss connected to fraud increased by 40% last year and suppressed 300,000,000 British pounds sterling.

Speaker 2: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Speaker 1: And Chase, hard line in the sand, said, basically, if you would like to continue to do, to do this, you are free to switch banks. Wow. That's fascinating. But that

Speaker 2: that's a great response.

Speaker 1: I mean, it it it's a line in the sand. Right? It's just like, listen. The amount of money we end up swallowing because people had their identity stolen, it was used to purchase this product, has reached such a significant point that we are willing to let you switch banks as long as we don't have to let people buy this product using our bank. Exactly. Like, it it's a cost benefit analysis. They wouldn't do it if it they didn't think it was gonna save them money. We And at 300,000,000 British pounds that I I get how they got there. That's an interesting find, man.

Speaker 2: They're like, we are a real bank that deals with the real money. And if you wanna deal with that kind of money, quote, unquote money, you can go to another bank. I I respect the shit out of that, honestly.

Speaker 1: I honestly wonder if that's gonna come to, I wonder if that's gonna come to The US. It feels Oh. It feels much more European as we're looking at iPhones with USB c's, on the bottom of them for regulatory reasons. It feels like a very European impulse that would take several years to trickle over, to to to North America, but I'm curious.

Speaker 2: I don't know. I feel I feel like it's coming faster than you think. I feel like

Speaker 1: I I think it might be coming. I I no. I think you might be right.

Speaker 2: Like, the all the telephone grifters and stuff that want you to give them, like, Google App Store cards and things like that. Sure. Crypto is way better. Like, it's as a

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2: As an illegal digital, quote, unquote, currency, like, or or as a place to dump, you know, profits of fraud and scam, crypto seems like a great way to do it. You know, if you're stealing Visa cards and buying crypto coins, you know, you can then convert those theoretically back to real money at some point pretty easily versus buying, like

Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure.

Speaker 2: App store gift cards.

Speaker 1: Well, maybe we wrap up by talking about I wonder if anyone will pitch gift cards on this show. I wanna talk about a television program called Killer Whales.

Speaker 2: Killer Whales. K. I'm gonna watch the trailer.

Speaker 1: Buddy crypto entrepreneurs from all over the world face off against the killer whale judges.

Speaker 7: You put 10,000,000 of your own money into this project. Are you crazy?

Speaker 1: I'm kinda crazy.

Speaker 6: It's coming in the elementary canal, and it's ending up as decentralized diarrhea. Oh my god.

Speaker 2: They are the next Disney.

Speaker 6: I'm a visionary, and I could tell he's a visionary.

Speaker 1: So this is a major red flag

Speaker 2: for me. You're right.

Speaker 1: I talked to you. I was pretty exceptional.

Speaker 2: Anthony Scaramucci? Come on.

Speaker 1: Why is Anthony Scaramucci there, dude? This ninety seconds has some of the best line like, the density of incredible lines in this ninety second trailer. I highly recommend everyone goes and watch it. A couple personal so the the broad overview, everyone's familiar with the show Shark Tank, where people go and ship, like, pitch businesses in front of, venture capitalists. It's that, but for crypto. People are going up in front of this panel of of judges. It's not really clear if they're actually gonna invest in anything or if they're just, like, judging the projects, but they're pitching their crypto thing, and these people are responding to it. Lines from the trailer include, they're the next Disney, said without qualification or or, like, context. We want to reimagine water is such an amazing thing to hear a person say. And the way that they're reimagining is that you can scan a QR code on the can to get your bored ape or whatever it is.

Speaker 6: We want to reimagine water. So it is water. So what am I missing? Sell me on the story. When you scan the can, that's where Crypto and Web 3 is unlocked. I actually think they are onto something.

Speaker 2: Oh my god. That's

Speaker 1: it's not I got

Speaker 2: I gotta say I gotta say this, Jordan. I think I think I'm gonna have to watch a couple episodes

Speaker 1: Like Dude, I'm I'm fully in. I'm going to watch this entire thing.

Speaker 2: I I hope somebody shows up and is like, here's my pitch. I'm gonna steal a bunch of crypto. Do crimes. And here's how it's gonna work. I'm gonna get super rich. And they're just like, yeah. You know, proven model. Proven model. Good.

Speaker 1: I'm gonna call up MGM Grand, and I'm going to lie using stuff I found on LinkedIn, and then I'm going to hold their casino ransom for cryptocurrency.

Speaker 2: Be like, yeah. Proven model.

Speaker 1: The shark will invest.

Speaker 2: Proven model. Proven model. I'm in. Yeah. Well, I think I think credit where credit's due. I think the crypto market is still over a trillion dollars in completely unbased value. Mhmm. So the so they've the by allowing people to trade nothing, they've literally managed to create a trillion dollars in real money strictly off of speculation, which is amazing that the securities commission and the treasury let that happen, but they did. So the, yeah, there's still a lot of money in crypto. Like, Bitcoin's trading, like, 26, 26 plus, 26,000, which is still, you know, up a lot for sure. Yeah. For sure. Only a half $1,000,000,000,000 in market cap. Yikes. Yeah. Anyway, this is this this this speaks to me in, like,

Speaker 1: a in

Speaker 2: the in the same way that go that going on Twitter does. Like, I only go on Twitter to, like and this is very obvious to anybody that follows us in social media, even though I did reply to somebody yesterday, is I go on Twitter to, like, see what the world's fighting about and, like, to look at the, like, like, it's like a what's the right way for it? It's like a it's like when I wanna see something bad. Like, I'm I'm not like, watching the car crash video. Like, I see killer whales as the same as something like that. Like, I just

Speaker 1: wanna You're talking about hate watching. Let's just be honest here.

Speaker 2: Yeah. If that's the technical term for it. But If

Speaker 1: that's the technical term, dictionary definition. Yeah. I'm just intrigued by it. I'm very, very intrigued by it. They're like, it's reached a level. I'm not sure what this show means, but I know it's pretty entertaining listening to people talk about these types of projects using the language and narrative framing of a shark's tank or a dragon's den. I I there's just something really funny about it. The whole thing takes place in the bat cave from the dark night. It looks like this sort of, like, weird low roofed glowing ceiling type thing. Looks great. It looks like a million bucks. An idea I had when I was watching this, a sincere idea, they can feel free to get in touch with us, is there's a concept in crypto, I guess, in a lot of investing, FUD, fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

Speaker 2: Of course.

Speaker 1: People get criticized in crypto. It's part of sort of like the in speak of if you aren't excited about the project everyone else is excited about. You're a FUDder. Fear, uncertainty, doubter. And I don't know if it's its own whole show or a segment on this show, but I think we need to host a FUD hole, which is just people pitching these projects to people full of fear and uncertainty.

Speaker 2: I wanna watch I wanna watch FUD hole. Well, here here's the thing. I'm just on this TV show's website, and they have a token, of course. Why wouldn't they? So you can buy, their tokens, which Token. Are not a share in their company. Else, they would be trading securities. They're just selling you a token. I'm not sure what it's for. Like, do you need a token to access the show?

Speaker 1: No. I think you can just watch it. But people like tokens.

Speaker 2: I guess.

Speaker 1: You can connect your wallet to their site, and you can buy one.

Speaker 2: With 1,000,000,000,000 trillion dollars in to you can buy a token.

Speaker 1: And then you would have it.

Speaker 2: Oh, man. Gonna be interesting.

Speaker 1: On this episode of FUD hole.

Speaker 2: How can I watch the show? Due to premiere on HelloTV. I'm really I'm on their FAQ.

Speaker 1: We should do a we should do a watch party

Speaker 2: Oh, we should.

Speaker 1: For this. I'm team Anthony Scaramucci. Sentence I've never said.

Speaker 2: Oh, man. K. Let's end it there.

Speaker 1: Okay. We gotta Let's end it there.

Speaker 2: End it there.

Speaker 1: Vegas hacked. Sony hacked. Stalkerware getting taken down.

Speaker 2: Crypto corner.

Speaker 1: And some some fun in in the crypto corner. Scott, it's been a pleasure. I think

Speaker 2: I might make a new, like, handle for myself on the internet of, like, you know, like, Captain Fudder, like, chief Fudd. Yeah. Like like, I don't think there's anybody that I know that is as cynical towards crypto as me. So I think that I I deserve that.

Speaker 1: We've made a media property about it, dude. Yeah. Like like, I'm I concur. I think that's a great idea. Maybe we should make a shotgun circuit. Maybe we should make a response TV show on YouTube where we literally

Speaker 2: watch Dude, response content. It's not my vibe, but like I can see the appeal for it.

Speaker 1: No, totally. I so man, we're really off the rails here. It's okay. I love, call in shows. I think it's a highly it's very popular, but it's still an underrated format. I think they're great. I think call in shows, you can get a ton of content. You get to hear a bunch of different people's experiences, and you get you get to spend time with your your favorite call answering host. And I think a call in show where you pitch your ludicrous crypto idea at any stage of development to two indignant people just going, like, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. I would watch that. That sounds great.

Speaker 2: I feel I feel like we've we've succeeded at our twenty twenty over succeeding. It's not succeeded yet. At our 2023 goal of getting a merch store up, maybe our 2024 goal Sure. Is to do some form of routine YouTube live, Twitch, something Hopefully. And do, like, a do, like, a Discord, like, drag people into a voice chat Discord or something and, like, actually do some some video content because I think that would be fun. I would enjoy that.

Speaker 1: I I would like that too. Okay. Well

Speaker 2: I would I would I would love somebody who thinks that crypto is the new world order to tell me why the crypto is the new world order and how I've how I've missed the boat so far and so big.

Speaker 1: No. I we're circling something here. We'll look back.

Speaker 2: Okay. And

Speaker 1: and with that took us a calendar year to get those hats. But we'll we'll we'll catch you on on YouTube sure soon enough.

Speaker 2: K.

Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening. This was a fun one, and we'll catch you in the next one.

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